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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 21790 times)

Online Michael Capasse

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2018, 02:59:26 PM »
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William Scoggins was sitting in his cab at the southeast corner of Tenth and
Patton.  Scoggins saw Tippit's patrol car pass slowly in front of his cab,
driving west to east along Tenth Street (Scoggins' cab was sitting on Patton,
facing north towards Tenth street).  Scoggins noticed that the patrol car pulled
up alongside a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side of Tenth
Street.  William Scoggins positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw
running towards his cab seconds after hearing gun shots.  Scoggins got out of
his cab with thoughts of running from the scene as Oswald headed straight
towards him after the shots rang out.  After realizing he had nowhere to hide,
Scoggins returned to his cab and ducked down behind it as he watched Oswald turn
the corner and head down Patton towards Jefferson.  Scoggins testified that
Oswald had a gun in his hand.
 
Every single one of the above witnesses positively identified Lee Oswald as that man.




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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2018, 02:59:26 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2018, 02:59:49 PM »
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~snip~

Ballistic testing can determine whether or not an empty shell casing was fired from a specific weapon to the exclusion of every other weapon in the entire world.  Before shooting, the shell casing is placed against the breech face and the firing pin.  When the pin strikes the primer, the bullet is fired off and the shell casing is thrust against the breech face of the weapon.  This causes a permanent mark on the base of the empty shell, i.e. the distinctive fine lines etched onto the breech face put their "fingerprint" on the base of the empty shell.

Joseph Nicol (Superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation for the State of Illinois) along with Cortlandt Cunningham, Robert Frazier and Charles Killion (of the Firearms Identification Unit of the FBI Laboratory in Washington D.C.) each examined the shells found at the Tippit scene and Oswald's revolver, which he ordered from Seaport Traders, Inc.  Each of these experts determined that the shells were linked (through ballistics) to Oswald's revolver, to the exclusion of every other weapon in the world.


Mr. EISENBERG. Now, were you able to determine whether those bullets have been fired in this weapon?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I was not.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
First of all, Commission Exhibit No. 602 was too mutilated. There were not sufficient microscopic marks remaining on the
surface of this bullet, due to the mutilation, to determine whether or not it had been fired from this weapon

snip-

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you said that there were three bullets of Winchester-Western manufacture, those are 602, 603,
and 605, and one bullet of R.-P. manufacture.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.
Mr. EISENBERG. However, as to the cartridge cases, Exhibit 594, you told us there were two R.-P. cartridge cases
and two Western cartridge cases.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that the recovered cartridge cases, there is one more recovered R.-P. cartridge case than there
was recovered bullet?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. And as to the bullets, there is one more recovered Winchester-Western bullet than there is
Winchester-Western cartridges?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct

~snip~


« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 03:08:50 PM by Gary Craig »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2018, 03:01:01 PM »
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McDonald is quoted as saying that the firing pin failed when Oswald tried to shot him in the theater Are you saying he is incorrect??

You would do well to remind yourself that Nick McDonald was a damned liar.....

And it is a FACT the fire pin could NOT have failed as lyin Nick claimed....


Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2018, 03:09:45 PM »
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Can you make a case for a problem with the chain of possession of the two shells found by each of the Davis girls?  For years I've asked conspiracy believers to do this but none ever have.

 You are asking him to make case against the chain of possession when the chain of possession has not been established Not surprising that you have not got an answer from CT's because its irrational

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 03:23:58 PM »
You forgot the witness who got the best look at Tippit's killer and whose description of the murderer doesn't

match a photo taken of LHO while in DPD custody on 11/22/63.

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~



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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 03:23:58 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 03:28:03 PM »
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~snip~
 
Ted Callaway was standing out on the front porch of the used-car lot office,
where he worked.  Callaway testified that he heard five pistol shots.  Callaway
testified that he believed the shots came from the vicinity of Tenth Street,
which was behind the office he worked in.  He went out to the sidewalk on the
east side of Patton and noticed Scoggin's cab parked up near the corner of
Patton at Tenth.  As Callaway watched the cab driver (Scoggins) hide beside his
cab, he noticed a man running across Patton from the east side of Patton to the
west side.  Callaway watched the man run down Patton towards Jefferson.  Ted
Callaway positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw run down Patton with
a gun in his hands.
 
~snip~



TESTIMONY OF TED CALLAWAY

~snip~

Mr. BALL. He was crossing Patton?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was that to the south or the north of the taxicab? Closer to you than the taxicab?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He was running.

~snip~

Mr. BALL. About what distance was he away from you--the closest that he ever was to you?
Mr. CALLAWAY. About 56 feet.
Mr. BALL. You measured that, did you?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Last Saturday morning?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Measured it with a tape measure?

~snip~

Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2018, 03:50:19 PM »
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You would do well to remind yourself that Nick McDonald was a damned liar.....

And it is a FACT the fire pin could NOT have failed as lyin Nick claimed....

 I have no problem with that Walt I suppose my point is to Bill about the consistency of the authorities stories and contradictions Is the story that McDonald, and the others, approached Oswald with their guns in holsters? That seems a little unlikely given the presuppositions they were operating under

Online Rob Caprio

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 06:47:23 PM »
I see Bill Brown the fictional writer is at it again. This is from my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series and looks at the JDT witnesses (save Helen Markham).

*************************************
Disclaimer: I will no longer respond to any posts that are off topic and/or meant to derail the issue of the opening post. This should not be taken as me running, but instead seen as me keeping the topic on track.

I have no issue with any WC defender, therefore, I am happy to discuss the case in a manner that uses the actual evidence with them. IF the WC was correct in their final conclusion as they claim then this should be no problem for them.

I will not participate in any personal discussions with them as these are meant to distract and discredit instead of focusing on the JFK assassination. I come here to discuss and learn about the JFK assassination and nothing more.
No more games with the LNers. The LNers have to to discuss the WC's, HSCA's and ARRB's evidence or move along.

******************************************

I have covered the ballistic evidence in the JD Tippit (JDT) shooting before.  I will now look at some of the witnesses (save Helen Markham as she deserves her own post since she was the "star" witness for the Warren Commission (WC)) and see if they really did identify Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) as the shooter with NO assistance.

*******************************************

William Scoggins was one of the most vehement (as we have seen in Bill Brown's recent post) of the witnesses that said he identified Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) as the shooter.  Let's see what he said.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime after you got there after the noon meal you saw the lineup, is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many people were in the lineup, if you can remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Four.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

This sounds good, huh? But let's read on and see if he saw any pictures of LHO or was given any assistance in his ID of LHO.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you any particular man was Oswald in the lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

-----------

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you one of the men was the man you saw or not, or did they tell you "See if you can"--just what did they say? Did they say "Here is a lineup, see if you-can identify anyone," or did they say, "One of the men in the lineup"--

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I believe those are the words they used. I am not--

So it appears some coaching was going on and he knew for sure the man the police had claimed done it was in the lineup for him to pick.

Mr. BELIN. Did all of these men look different to you? Were most of them fat, or were most of them thin, or some fat, some thin, some tall, some short?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There were two of them--the one that I identified as the one I saw over at Oak Cliff, and there was one I saw similar to him, and the other two was a little bit shorter.

We see there were two men that looked similar, but Scoggins picked LHO out instead of the other man.  Why?  Well, one reason the defense could argue is because he saw LHO's picture in the newspaper and NOT the other man's!

Mr. DULLES. Had you been looking at television or seeing television prior to your appearance here at the lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. DULLES. You had not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir.

Notice the WC lawyer seemed surprised that he had NOT been watching television since so much of the country was.

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper.

Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself.

Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of the cab drivers had it.

So we see he did see the picture of LHO in the newspaper BEFORE he went to view the lineup!  This would cause the defense team to have the ID thrown out due to influence.  Why else did he NOT pick the other man out?  Let's get back to the television angle as well, does anyone believe his excuse for NOT watching television, and thus, seeing even more coverage of LHO being accused of being the man who shot JDT?

Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like fooling around with television too much.

Doesn't reading the paper take more effort than blindly watching television? I would think so.  Could it be he was covering, with the WC's help, that he had been watching the coverage like most of the country and therefore saw LHO numerous times being accused of murdering JDT and John F. Kennedy (JFK)?  It is a good possibility. What's this?

Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having seen on November 22?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3.

Wasn't he the "number two" man for Markham? I guess they can keep changing his position, but this is different from what Markham said.
 
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if the number 3 man in the lineup was wearing the same clothes that the man you saw at the Tippit shooting wore?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He had on a different shirt, and he didn't have a jacket on. He had on kind of a polo shirt.

When did LHO wear a polo shirt at the DPD?  I'm confused here as to who he picked.  What about you?  This is interesting.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was an FBI man or a Dallas policeman or a Secret Service agent?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was an FBI or a Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN. What did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures there,, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old pictures, and I think I picked the wrong picture. I am not too--

This means when shown photos of LHO and others he did NOT pick LHO as the man he saw with this FBI or SS Agent! This is in direct contrast to this supposed ID of LHO with the DPD.  So we see he had help from a picture in the newspaper (and probably television and radio (I mean what else do you listen to in a cab?)) and when asked to pick the man he saw out of a set of photos given to him by a FBI or SS Agent he failed to pick LHO's!

-------------------------

Domingo Benavides was the CLOSEST witness to the murder of JDT.  And yet, he NEVER ID'd LHO as the shooter in a firm, positive manner to the exclusion of everyone else!  In fact, on the day of the shooting he told the cops that came to speak with him that he could NOT ID the shooter.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see then?

Mr. BENAVIDES - I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

This is the part all LNers quote.  It sounds good if you read it fast!  He mentions LHO's name!  BUT, he also amends it with "or the man that shot him" too!  IF he was saying LHO was the man that shot him he would have NOT added this. In fact, the man quickly began being called "the other man" instead of LHO by both Benavides and the WC!

Mr. BELIN - Where did you see the other man?

Mr. BENAVIDES - The other man was standing to the right side of the car, riders side of the car, and was standing right in front of the windshield on the right front fender. And then I heard the shot. Actually I wasn't looking for anything like that, so I heard the shot, and I just turned into the curb. Looked around to miss a car, I think.

And then I pulled up to the curb, hitting the curb, and I ducked down, and then I heard two more shots.

We do NOT see them saying this was LHO, but rather the "other man."  How did he even know the name Oswald?

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?

Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN - Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or both, or neither?

Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like.

Mr. BELIN - Pardon.

Mr. BENAVIDES - I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every day for a long time there.

So we see he saw LHO's picture in the media for a long time.  The other motivating factor in play here that is NOT mentioned is that Benavides' brother was shot in the head in February 1964 and many have said it was meant for Domingo.  Let's go back to the day of the shooting -- could he ID the shooter?

Mr. BELIN - Then what happened? Did the officers ever get in touch with you?

Mr. BENAVIDES - Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me---I had told them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you all the time.

Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he had been shot. I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could. It this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have.

So if he couldn't ID the shooter on 11/22/63, why would we think he could in April 1964?  Beyond the intense media coverage blaming LHO what would have changed?  I think an important note is he was never taken in to view a lineup on the day of the shooting. Let's look at the clothing and see if he saw what LHO was wearing.

Mr. BELIN - I am handing you what has been marked "Commission's Exhibit 150," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on?

Mr. BENAVIDES - I think the shirt looked darker than that.

-------------

Mr. BELIN - I am handing you a jacket which has been marked as "Commission's Exhibit 162," and ask you to state whether this bears any similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing?

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say this looks just like it. Looks like he had laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that.

We see he could NOT ID either the shirt or the jacket as being the one he saw the man wearing.

---------------------------------

Ted Callaway was another witness to the JDT murder.  Let's see what his lineup experience was like. He testified to NOT seeing any pictures of LHO prior to the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Tell us what happened.

Mr. CALLAWAY. We first went into the room. There was Jim Leavelle, the detective, Sam Guinyard, and then this busdriver and myself. We waited down there for probably 20 or 30 minutes. And Jim told us, "When I show you these guys, be sure,. take your time, see if you can make a positive identification."

Mr. BALL. Had you known him before?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.

I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.

Firstly, take note of the comment of a "POSITIVE" ID.  Too often LNers claim things are ID's when they are NOT even close to being positive. Secondly, what is with the comment BEFORE he views the lineup about the man being the same "one that shot the President"? Ditto, IF we can wrap him on this we got him?  Is this the kind of talk you should be using before a lineup is viewed?  I don't think so.

Finally, we get to his claim of knowing LHO was the man.  How can he be sure? Let's see what kind of view he got of the shooter.


Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what distance was he away from you--the closest that he ever was to you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. About 56 feet.

Mr. BALL. You measured that, did you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

What??? Now, Bill Brown may say FIFTY SIX FEET is not that far, but when it comes to identifying a suspect for a capital murder it is an extremely long distance.  How can he be sure of anything at this distance?  He can't.  And we know it was this distance because he measured it himself!

Mr. BALL. Last Saturday morning?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Measured it with a tape measure?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Whew. SO much for that ID, huh?  How about the clothing?

Mr. BALL. What kind--when you talked to the police officers before you saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

LHO was supposedly wearing a gray jacket with NO tan in it.

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket here Commission's Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that you saw across the street with a gun?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; it sure does. Yes, that is the same type jacket. Actually, I thought it had a little more tan to it.

------------------

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt, 150. Does it look anything like the shirt he had on under the jacket?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Sir, when I saw him he didn't have--I couldn't see this shirt. I saw--he had it open. That shirt was open, and I could see his white T-shirt underneath.

So again we see NO ID of the jacket or shirt.  His identification of LHO is suspect given the distance of the two men.  He was over a a quarter of a football field away so we can't be sure what he saw.

----------------------------

Barbara Davis was another witness in the vicinity of the JDT shooting. Let's see her testimony regarding the lineup.

Mr. BALL. When those--how many men were shown to you in this lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Four.

Mr. BALL. Were they of the same size or of different sizes?

Mrs. DAVIS. Most of them was about the same size.

Mr. BALL. All white men, were they?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. BALL. Number 2 you recognized? Did you tell any policeman there anything after you recognized them?

Mrs. DAVIS. I told the man who had brought us down there.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mrs. DAVIS. That I thought number 2 was the man that I saw.

So LHO is back to being the number two man!  Why was he number three with Scoggins? This sounds good for the WC, but is it?

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed the same in the lineup as he was when you saw him running across the lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. All except he didn't have a black coat on when I saw him in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color coat?

Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat.

At NO time did LHO have a DARK coat on.  He owned a dark jacket, but that was left back at the TSBD.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes when you saw him in the lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I looked at his clothes and then his face from the side because I had seen him from a side view of him. I didn't see him fullface.

Mr. BALL. Now answer the question. Did you recognize him from seeing his face or from his clothes?

Mrs. DAVIS. From his face because that was all I was looking at.

Despite the tough attempt by the WC lawyer we see she would have been giving an ID based on a PARTIAL view of the man's face and in DIRECT contradiction to the clothing description she gave.  This again is NOT a firm positive ID. What about the clothing?

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket, I would like to show you, which is Commission Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that was going across your lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How is it different?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it was dark and to me it looked like it was maybe a wool fabric, it looked sort of rough. Like more of a sporting jacket.

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt which is Commission Exhibit No. 150. Was that--does that shirt look anything like something he had on, that the man had on who went across your lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. I thought that the shirt he had on was lighter than that.

Again, when the testimony is read in greater detail we see she could NOT have seen LHO!

----------------------------------

Finally, the last witness before we get to Markham.  Virgina Davis was with Barbara so she should have seen many of the same things. Let's go to the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go down to the police station or identify him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we had to identify him in the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. What day was that? This same day or another day?

Mrs. DAVIS. Same day.

-------------------

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the dark room?

Mrs. DAVIS. He told us to sit down.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. DAVIS. And then these five boys, or men walked up on this platform, and he was No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. You say he was No. 2. Who was No. 2?

Mrs. DAVIS. The boy that shot Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the man--did you see him shoot Tippit? Or you mean the man you saw with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. The man I saw carrying the gun.

Belin has NO right in correcting her like he does.  IF she thinks the person looked like a boy then that is her testimony.  This would have been prevented in a real trial.  The FACT she thought he was a boy would preclude LHO in my mind since the WC and its defenders claim LHO could pass for THIRTY!  He can't pass for thirty and be viewed as a "boy", now can he?

The WC did NOT even bother to ask her about clothing and that tells us a lot IMO.  We see from these witnesses a consistent pattern of NOT being able to identify what LHO was wearing or get other details correct.  I wonder who Scoggins identified since LHO seemed to be the number two man constantly?

This evidence again shows that the WC’s claim was incorrect, therefore, their conclusion is sunk again.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 06:47:23 PM »


Online Rob Caprio

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 06:51:03 PM »
Here is the one on Helen Markham from my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series.

************************************

Disclaimer: I will no longer respond to any posts that are off topic and/or meant to derail the issue of the opening post. This should not be taken as me running, but instead seen as me keeping the topic on track.

I have no issue with any WC defender, therefore, I am happy to discuss the case in a manner that uses the actual evidence with them. IF the WC was correct in their final conclusion as they claim then this should be no problem for them.

I will not participate in any personal discussions with them as these are meant to distract and discredit instead of focusing on the JFK assassination. I come here to discuss and learn about the JFK assassination and nothing more.
No more games with the LNers. The LNers have to to discuss the WC's, HSCA's and ARRB's evidence or move along.

****************************************

Previously in this series we have looked at the testimony of the eyewitnesses for the J.D. Tippit (JDT) murder, and saw not one of them could say it was Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) for sure or correctly describe his clothing and physical characteristics accurately. I did NOT cover the Warren Commission’s (WC) star witness, Helen Markham, in that thread, but will now do so.

Here are the key Portions of Helen Markham’s testimony.


********************************************

Mrs. Markham was a waitress who worked at the Eat Well restaurant.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex.

She used the local bus transportation to get to work and left the around the same time each day she worked.

Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day?

Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.

Mr. BALL. One o'clock?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.

The WC counsel would confirm this time and she would tell us what bus she caught each day.

Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.

Well now we have an interesting dilemma as she said her bus CAME BEFORE 1:15 PM and yet the WC claimed she was still around after JDT was shot at 1:16 p.m.!  How could this happen?  The excuse of traffic due to the assassination doesn’t hold water here as this was a good ways away from that incident, so how could she be at the scene of the crime when her bus would have come before the crime happened (if you accept the time the WC gave us which was around 1:16 p.m.)?

She couldn’t of course, so this lends credence to claim that the time of 1:06 p.m. was actually when he was shot and this is corroborated by Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig’s statement.  This testimony by William Scoggins would also support this claim too.


Mr. BELIN. One more question, Mr. Scoggins. You rode up here to Washington on an airplane with Mrs. Markham, did you not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting at all or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after I came back. You see, I saw her talking to them.

Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there and got in a car with them and left the scene.

Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham?

Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy.

Mr. DULLES. It was after that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that.

This testimony shows us that he saw her there, but NOT at the time of the shooting.  She said she left her home a “little after 1:00 p.m.” and the shooting occurred at 1:06 p.m. in all likelihood.  Why she took so long to get there is beyond me, but we see Scoggins did NOT see here UNTIL HE CAME BACK from looking for the shooter.  Notice he said “Oswald OR this guy” as he too was NOT saying it was LHO for sure. This is important for showing she was NOT in the vicinity of the shooting as claimed, thus, her “identification" of LHO (already highly suspect) is really useless.

A little later on Mr. Ball asks this very leading question!


Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.

Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

She would say he was walking south (east) along 10th street, but she was the only one that would say this. She then described the meeting between the man and the police car for us.

Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.

Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window.

Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down.

Mr. BALL. It was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball had every right to be surprised by hearing the window was down as witnesses who ran to the car shortly after the shooting said the window was up! 

Mr. BELIN. When you got to Tippit's car, did you take a look at that police car?

Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't touch it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look at it? Did you notice whether its windows were rolled up or rolled down?

Mrs. DAVIS The one on his side was rolled down.

Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the passenger side of the front seat, did you notice that?

Mrs. DAVIS. Rolled up.

Mr. BELIN. Was that rolled up?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Sgt. Barnes also took a photo of the window being up when he processed the car for prints.  She continued with her story.

Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window.

Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side.

Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Let me interrupt here for a second.  It was highly unusual for TIPPIT to be out here at this time as every other unit had been called to the downtown area after the shooting of President John F.  Kennedy (JFK) had occurred so why was Ball asking IF ANYONE ELSE WAS IN THE CAR?  Didn’t he have notes and records that showed JDT HAD NO PARTNER? 

Even the DPD logs that supposedly show JDT was assigned this area after JFK was shot have been shown to be wrong or doctored in the years since this day, so who was Ball expecting to be in the car with JDT?  Just wondering.


Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the police are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation.

Well, I looked, and there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in a few minutes this man made—

Sorry, I have to ask, HOW IN THE HECK DID SHE GET IT WAS A FRIENDLY CONVERSATION FROM WHAT SHE SAW? (Again, IF she saw anything as Scoggins said he NEVER saw here there UNTIL later on)  I mean either the man’s back was to her or the ENTIRE car was in her line of sight!   Notice all the confusion in this testimony between here and Ball too.

Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put his arms up, leaned over, he just a minute, and he drew back and he stepped back about two steps. Mr. Tippit—

Mr. BALL. The policeman?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I did not know; well, just as the policeman got—

Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten even with the wheel on the driver's side--
Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman.

Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Three.

Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street.

Of course we all know JDT was shot FOUR times, not three, so even here her testimony is incorrect.  Could it be incorrect because she was NOT there?

Now she describes what the man did and this is key for later on.


Mr. BALL. What did the man do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun.

Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back.

Mr. BALL. Toward Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my fingers like this, and I opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind of a little trot.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman.

Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't.

We see here she said he “stared at her” as he came across the street to the side she was standing on.  Then she said he stared at her again when he got to the corner.  This is key because she would NOT be able to identify the man in the lineups by HIS FACE, only his clothes allegedly.  Here is more along these lines!

Mr. BALL. You looked at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You looked at him

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me.

So again, why could she NOT identify him by his face then?

She then saw him “fool with his gun”!


Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands.

Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me.

Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the corner when you saw the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far.

And yet a witness said they did NOT see her at the scene as the shooting occurred. How do we make these two things jive?

Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there.

Scoggins was pretty much across the street from where she was standing and yet he never saw her.  Barbara Davis would say she saw her and Virginia Davis would say she saw her, but admitted she based this off of the news coverage and her sister-in-law’s comments.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know it was Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. Virginia DAVIS. Well, it said in the paper that it was Mrs. Markham, and my sister-in-law said it was Mrs. Markham. My sister-in-law knows Mrs. Markham

For a third time she would confirm her comments about looking at the man’s face!

Mr. BALL. Did he look at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you look at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did.

Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped my hands up to my face like this.

Yet she couldn’t ID him at the lineup by HIS FACE!

Now comes the most bizarre thing she would say.  It was determined JDT was killed instantly and no one else at the scene ever remembered him saying anything or seeing Mrs. Markham kneeling beside him, yet she would claim to have done both.


Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate neighborhood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I didn't know at that time I couldn't do something for him.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Tippit, Officer Tippit, didn't say anything to you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He tried to.

Mr. DULLES. He tried to?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. But he didn't succeed?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't understand. I was screaming and hollering and I was trying to help him all I could, and I would have. I was with him until they put him in the ambulance.

What??  JDT was killed instantly! Why would she make this up?  Who knows but talk about destroying your credibility!

Now comes the lineup section.


Mr. BALL. We have a map coming from the FBI. We thought it would be here this morning.

Mrs. Markham, you were taken to the Police Department, weren't you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Immediately.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later that day they had a showup you went to?

Mrs. MARKHAM. A lineup?

Mr. BALL. A lineup.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many men were in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe there were, now I am not positive, I believe there were three besides this man.

Mr. BALL. That would be four people altogether?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe that is correct.

So we have four men and LHO is the “number two” man.

Notice how the “room was full of policemen” as she was asked to ID the man she saw.  Can anyone say intimidation?


Mr. BALL. Were they of anywhere near similar build or size or coloring?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, they were all about the same height.

Mr. BALL. Who were you in the lineup room with?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Who was I in the room where they had this man?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Policemen.

Mr. Ball realized how this sounded so he tried to soften it with this!

Mr. BALL. More than one?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The room was full.

Mr. BALL. It was. In this lineup room, the room was full of policemen. Weren't there just one or two men with you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. One or two with me, but I don't know who they were.

Mr. BALL. But there were other officers?

Mrs. MARKHAM. There were all policemen sitting in the back of me, and aside of me.

Mr. BALL. In this room?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. They were doing something.

Why does he keep saying “This room?” as if she suddenly went to another room or building?  After establishing that she had not seen LHO on the television or in the newspapers or that no one gave her a clue at the DPD they moved on.  (Ironically they would use quite a few witnesses statements even after learning they had to have seen LHO on the television or in the newspapers – i.e. Brennan) to the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

But the WC sure would!

Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

That is a no for the first time!

Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before did you recognize anybody from their face?

Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.

First of all an OBJECTION could be raised as she has answered the question already, but there was NO need to worry about that since LHO had been gunned down while 75 DPD officers stood around and they did NOT allow him to have an attorney anyway!

Notice the NO for the second time.


Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.

Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Houston, we have a problem!  For the third time she has said she recognized NO one in the lineup and LHO was in the lineup!

Mr. BALL. No one of the four?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.

Strike four!

Mr. BALL. No one of all four?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Strike FIVE!  Of course a defense attorney would have put an end to this nonsense long ago, but it is good to show us she RECOGNIZED NO ONE in the lineup!  So what to do, what to do?  Hmm.  I guess we better just lead her to the man in question then!

Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked.

Shocker!!!!

Mr. BALL. Well, I thought you just told me that you hadn't—

Mrs. MARKHAM. I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing.

What??  Remember, she said like 3-4 times she stared at the man and he stared at her, yet we are limited to a clothing description here. Why?  They could also never show she is the one who gave the clothing description to the police either despite claiming she did!  Does this sound familiar?  Can anyone say Brennan?

Mr. BALL. No. I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if you saw anyone in there—

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two.

Whew!  My career teaching kids the law is saved!  Too bad I had to break all the rules to do it.  Was this a solid ID?

Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.

Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

Wow, so chills and weakness are the barometers she used!  Why could she NOT ID him by the face when she said she saw his face quite a few times?

Mr. BALL. When you saw him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I told them I wanted to be sure, and looked, at his face is what I was looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning to talk, and I don't know, just—

Why can’t she say this is the man I saw based on his face?  She mentions the eyes and then says she had them turn him sideways!  How does this make any sense.  Finally she got closer to the face and guess what the counsel for the WC did?  He changed the subject!

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize him from his clothing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light short jacket, dark trousers. I looked at his clothing, but I looked at his face, too.

But they don’t care about the face as he goes back to the clothing!

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothing on that the man had that you saw shoot the officer?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had, these dark trousers on.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Of course the jacket in evidence is not “grayish-tan” so this is wrong. Her statement CORROBORATES the statement by Callaway though as he too said the jacket had TAN in it. LHO also would not have had a jacket on at the lineup either unless the DPD gave him one to wear.  He seemed to be in a white t-shirt in most of the pictures and films I have seen since they took his shirt early on after he was arrested.  Now we get to the nitty gritty about the jacket!

Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup have a jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember that.

Mr. BALL. Did this number two man that you mentioned to the police have any jacket on when he was in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light shirt and dark trousers.
(Representative Ford is now in the Commission hearing room.)

Ah, by light shirt did she mean a WHITE T-SHIRT?  Why did the counsel ask about a jacket and she confirmed a jacket IF NO JACKET WAS USED IN THE ID?  Does this make any sense?

Now they backtrack to the face.  Remember that FIVE times she did NOT recognize anyone in the lineup but as soon as the counsel mentioned the NUMBER TWO MAN she ran with it!


Mr. BALL. Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Mostly from his face.

Mr. BALL. Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am sure.

So why did she say she thought they were discussing the clothing earlier when she said FIVE TIMES she did not recognize anyone then? NOW, back to the jacket!

Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did you ever see this before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a darker jacket than that, I know it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that?
 
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that moment I was so excited—

Hmm, so the jacket in evidence is NOT like the color she saw! How can this be if this was LHO’s? So how did the WC explain this?  They didn’t as they just moved on to the shirt!

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever see a shirt the color of this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking shirt than that.

Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter.

Houston, it is us again!  So we see the jacket didn’t match what LHO was supposedly wearing and now the shirt did NOT match either, but the face supposedly did.  Was LHO walking around with one of those large cardboard cutouts you put your head on for photographs or what?

Of course they just moved on instead of answering this tough question.

About the ONLY thing Mrs. Markham was consistent with was the time of the shooting.  She said in her sworn affidavit to the DPD that she believed the shooting occurred at 1:06 p.m.!  See it here:


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Then she told the WC she believed the shooting took place around 1:06 or  1:07 PM!

Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes
after 1.


She would also consistently tell reporters and researchers over the years this was the time he was shot!  LHO could NOT have been at the scene of the crime at this time.  It is humanely impossible!

So in the end the WC’s only major witness for the JDT area of the case wound up exonerating the accused for us!

Clearly her testimony sinks the conclusion of the WCR.

Online Rob Caprio

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 06:55:20 PM »
And let's not forget that we have seen in my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series that Helen Markham's own son said that she was prone to lying.

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4) Why should Helen Markham be believed when her OWN son said she lied on many occasions?

If we go to Commission Exhibit (CE) 3122, page 787 we will see this comment by her son William Edward Markham.


Quote on

He was asked whether his mother had a reputation for fabricating stories or for lying, and he replied that she had LIED ON MANY OCCASIONS, even to members of her immediate family. (CE 3122, p. 787) (Emphasis added)

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Quote off

Since WC defenders seem to claim the same charges by Roger Craig’s daughter carry some weight, why don’t these also carry weight. YOUR star witness was a liar on many occasions according to her OWN son.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 06:55:20 PM »