Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 137858 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1600 on: October 23, 2019, 06:14:51 PM »
Right.  And also no way of knowing how close either clock was to any time standard.

This quote from the same interview by Larry Sneed might give you a clue:

And somebody else said, ďAll right.Ē Just after that, at about 12: 30: 55 is when the first shot was fired.

I donít have the information as to how Bowles arrived at that conclusion. But it doesnít appear to me that their clocks were more than a minute or two off.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1601 on: October 23, 2019, 06:31:16 PM »
This quote from the same interview by Larry Sneed might give you a clue:

And somebody else said, ďAll right.Ē Just after that, at about 12: 30: 55 is when the first shot was fired.

I donít have the information as to how Bowles arrived at that conclusion. But it doesnít appear to me that their clocks were more than a minute or two off.
Charles; I'm not sure if you read this or not but Bowles goes into some detail as to how he determined that and other times: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles.html

See chapter/section 3 in particular.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1602 on: October 23, 2019, 06:38:42 PM »
Charles; I'm not sure if you read this or not but Bowles goes into some detail as to how he determined that and other times: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles.html

See chapter/section 3 in particular.

Thanks Steve!

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1603 on: October 23, 2019, 07:10:35 PM »
This quote from the same interview by Larry Sneed might give you a clue:

And somebody else said, ďAll right.Ē Just after that, at about 12: 30: 55 is when the first shot was fired.

I donít have the information as to how Bowles arrived at that conclusion.

Obviously out of thin air, since even the admittedly inaccurate dispatcher clocks didn't show seconds.

Quote
But it doesnít appear to me that their clocks were more than a minute or two off.

How would you know?

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1604 on: October 23, 2019, 07:25:06 PM »
Charles; I'm not sure if you read this or not but Bowles goes into some detail as to how he determined that and other times: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles.html

See chapter/section 3 in particular.

Thanks for the pointer.  So Bowles derives his "approximate to the second" timestamps only during the period of time that the motorcycle radio mic was stuck on (thus causing the sound-activated channel 1 recorder to record continuously) by arbitrarily assigning the exact time of 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time) to the beginning of the stuck-mic episode.  Unfortunately this doesn't help us determine anything about the time period surrounding Tippit's shooting.

Bowles also gives a number of caveats:

     "It is, however, important to remember that

     1. No exact record of "time" exists;
     2. The several clocks were not synchronized;
     3. The radio operators were not exact with regard to "time statements" on either radio;
     4. The recordings were continuous only on Channel 1, and only while the mike was stuck open;
     5. For an accurate, although derived, time reference point, 12:29:10 (Channel 1), the time the mike stuck open, will be developed and used in this text."
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 09:17:47 PM by John Iacoletti »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1605 on: October 23, 2019, 07:45:08 PM »
Or Alyea (or Kritzberg) may have just been wrong.

Gary Savage (1st Day Evidence) also says that a newsman (Alyea) who had been allowed into the TSBD took video of Lt Day lifting prints from the rifle....

What possible reason would there be for Day, Drain, and Latona to all lie about sending and receiving the card later and separately from the other evidence?

That would take me a while to type out.....And you already know the answer.....You've read my posts....

I believe Vince Drain took only a few select  pieces of evidence ( The Rifle and a couple of other items) and flew in an Air Force jet to Washington.... The bulk of the evidence arrived later on Saturday........

"I believe Vince Drain took only a few select  pieces of evidence ( The Rifle and a couple of other items) and flew in an Air Force jet to Washington.... The bulk of the evidence arrived later on Saturday........"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10484#relPageId=89&tab=page
Commission Document 81.1 - AG Texas

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1606 on: October 23, 2019, 08:18:38 PM »
"I believe Vince Drain took only a few select  pieces of evidence ( The Rifle and a couple of other items) and flew in an Air Force jet to Washington.... The bulk of the evidence arrived later on Saturday........"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10484#relPageId=89&tab=page
Commission Document 81.1 - AG Texas


Thanks Gary,  Although the 3 X 5 card isn't specifically mentioned , the writer does say " The evidence was turned over to Drain about midnight  Friday, November, 22, 1963. "  And that 3 X 5 card was listed on the evidence inventory list.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1607 on: October 23, 2019, 09:03:22 PM »
Thanks Gary,  Although the 3 X 5 card isn't specifically mentioned , the writer does say " The evidence was turned over to Drain about midnight  Friday, November, 22, 1963. "  And that 3 X 5 card was listed on the evidence inventory list.

There is absolutely no evidence that the document in question was an evidence list of items turned over to the FBI on 11/22 or that it was even written on 11/22.  Or even that CE637 is a 3x5 card.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 09:05:34 PM by John Iacoletti »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1608 on: October 23, 2019, 09:10:59 PM »
Thanks for the pointer.  So Bowles derives his "approximate to the second" timestamps only during the period of time that the motorcycle radio mic was stuck on (thus causing the sound-activated channel 1 recorder to record continuously) buy arbitrarily assigning the exact time of 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time) to the beginning of the stuck-mic episode.  Unfortunately this doesn't help us determine anything about the time period surrounding Tippit's shooting.

Bowles also gives a number of caveats:

     "It is, however, important to remember that

     1. No exact record of "time" exists;
     2. The several clocks were not synchronized;
     3. The radio operators were not exact with regard to "time statements" on either radio;
     4. The recordings were continuous only on Channel 1, and only while the mike was stuck open;
     5. For an accurate, although derived, time reference point, 12:29:10 (Channel 1), the time the mike stuck open, will be developed and used in this text."

Two quotes from the same page: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html#set

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.

Spoken time stamps that could be two minutes ahead or behind the "official" time, recorded on voice activated devices do not provide a solid basis for preparing accurate transcripts.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 03:09:23 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1609 on: October 23, 2019, 09:36:21 PM »

How would you know?

By noting the stated times and the duration of messages in the minutes preceding the incident of the open microphone, I have, for practical purposes, fixed the time for the start of the five-minute open mike episode at 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time). Time statements broadcast later confirm this as a rational assumption. (See PART II, CHAPTER FIVE for technical details demonstrating this confirmation.) Since it is important to have a zero-base from which one might project future time points, a decision was necessary. In using the start of the five-minute interval, and 12:29:10 (Channel 1) as the zero-base, with subsequent time factored thereon, "time" would at least be constant if not absolutely accurate. If not absolutely accurate, time statements cannot be more than a second or two off. The reader is encouraged to reach an independent decision based on the transcriptions of the radio transmissions contained in the Appendix.

[From the appendix]:

As it would appear, since the Channel 2 dispatcher gave the 12:30 time and station check, "12:30 KKB364" a few seconds before Chief Curry's broadcast, "We're going to the hospital . . . ", the assassin's shots were fired either just before or immediately after 12:30 p.m. (Channel 2). However, that would be an inaccurate assumption.
There is a simple way to determine more accurately the approximate time the 12:30 station check was actually given.

Actually, the 12:30 station check was given more nearly at 12:31:16 (Channel 2).

If the clocks used by the dispatchers were more than a minute or two off of official time, then his time and station check at 12:30 would have been off accordingly. It wasnít.

 

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