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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 2832 times)

Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2018, 08:21:23 AM »
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Can you make a case for a problem with the chain of possession of the two shells found by each of the Davis girls?  For years I've asked conspiracy believers to do this but none ever have.

Where did I say Davis girls?

Do you or do you not have a chain of possession for those shells?

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2018, 08:21:23 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2018, 09:07:50 AM »
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Where did I say Davis girls?

Do you or do you not have a chain of possession for those shells?

Yes.  The chain of possession of the two shells found by the Davis girls is intact.  If you have a problem with the chain of possession of those two shells, then list it.

Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2018, 09:35:42 AM »
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Yes.  The chain of possession of the two shells found by the Davis girls is intact.  If you have a problem with the chain of possession of those two shells, then list it.

I see you already have problems keeping track of what you wrote in your OP.

I asked for chain of possession for all the shells and you start babbling about the Davis girls.

Can you or can you not list the chain of possession for the shells?

Online Michael Capasse

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2018, 01:10:02 PM »
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I see you already have problems keeping track of what you wrote in your OP.

I asked for chain of possession for all the shells and you start babbling about the Davis girls.

Can you or can you not list the chain of possession for the shells?

actually...he can't

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2018, 01:17:26 PM »
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It was 1:05 on a Friday afternoon.....Helen Markham was on foot, walking south along Patton toward her bus stop, which was on Jefferson Boulevard. She was on her way to catch the bus that she took to work everyday. She knew that she would have to be at the bus stop before 1:12 so she was a bit impatient at being held up by the traffic as she waited to cross East Tenth street. 
Markham was just reaching the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton when she noticed Tippit's patrol car pass through the intersection, heading east along Tenth Street.  Markham testified that the patrol car pulled up to a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side of Tenth Street.  Helen Markham positively identified Lee Oswald as the man she saw talking to, and shoot, J.D. Tippit.  She testified that she saw Oswald run from the scene, heading down Patton with a gun in his hand.


 
William Scoggins was sitting in his cab at the southeast corner of Tenth and
Patton.  Scoggins saw Tippit's patrol car pass slowly in front of his cab,
driving west to east along Tenth Street (Scoggins' cab was sitting on Patton,
facing north towards Tenth street).  Scoggins noticed that the patrol car pulled
up alongside a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side of Tenth
Street.  William Scoggins positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw
running towards his cab seconds after hearing gun shots.  Scoggins got out of
his cab with thoughts of running from the scene as Oswald headed straight
towards him after the shots rang out.  After realizing he had nowhere to hide,
Scoggins returned to his cab and ducked down behind it as he watched Oswald turn
the corner and head down Patton towards Jefferson.  Scoggins testified that
Oswald had a gun in his hand.
 
Barbara Davis was laying in bed inside her residence, which was the house at the
corner of Tenth and Patton.  She heard gunshots outside and went to the front
door, which faced Tenth Street.  She opened the screen door and noticed Helen
Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis then noticed a man cutting through
her front yard, holding a gun in his hands.  She testified that the man had the
gun cocked in his hands as if he were emptying it.  Barbara Davis positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across her yard with a gun in
his hands.
 
Virginia Davis was in the living room of Barbara Davis' residence (400 E. Tenth
St.) when she heard gunshots outside.  Virginia Davis went to the front door
and, like Barbara, noticed Helen Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis
then noticed a man cutting across the front yard with a gun in his hands.  She
testified that the man was emptying shells out of the gun.  Virginia Davis
positively identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across the front
yard with a gun in his hands.
 
Ted Callaway was standing out on the front porch of the used-car lot office,
where he worked.  Callaway testified that he heard five pistol shots.  Callaway
testified that he believed the shots came from the vicinity of Tenth Street,
which was behind the office he worked in.  He went out to the sidewalk on the
east side of Patton and noticed Scoggin's cab parked up near the corner of
Patton at Tenth.  As Callaway watched the cab driver (Scoggins) hide beside his
cab, he noticed a man running across Patton from the east side of Patton to the
west side.  Callaway watched the man run down Patton towards Jefferson.  Ted
Callaway positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw run down Patton with
a gun in his hands.
 
Sam Guinyard worked at the same used-car lot as Ted Callaway.  Guinyard was out
on the lot washing one of the cars when he heard gunshots come from the
direction up toward Tenth Street.  From the car lot, Guinyard was looking north
toward Tenth in an attempt to see where the shots came from when he saw a man on
the sidewalk in between the first two houses on Tenth Street (400 E. Tenth and
404 E. Tenth).  Guinyard went toward the sidewalk on the east side of Patton and
saw the man cut across the yard of the house on the corner (400 E. Tenth, the
Davis residence) and proceeded to run south on Patton.  Guinyard said the man
had a gun in his hands and was emptying it of shells.  Sam Guinyard positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw running with the gun in his hands.

Each of the above witnesses saw a man flee the vicinity of the Tippit murder.  Each of the above witnesses saw a gun in the man's hands.  Every single one of the above witnesses positively identified Lee Oswald as that man.

These are the real witnesses and not even one of them said that someone other than Lee Oswald was the man they saw.

As for the revolver, Jim Leavelle briefly spoke with Oswald when Oswald was brought in from the theater.  Leavelle told Oswald that they could run ballistic tests on the revolver and match the revolver to the bullets taken from the officer's body, proving that the revolver taken from Oswald was the revolver responsible for the officer's death.  Oswald did not deny owning the revolver.  According to Leavelle, Oswald's only reply was "Well, you're just going to have to do it."

Oswald ordered the revolver under the name of A.J. Hidell on 1/27/63 from Seaport Traders, Inc.  Treasury Department handwriting expert Alwyn Cole testified that the handwriting on the order coupon belonged to Lee Oswald.  The FBI's handwriting expert James Cadigan also testified that the handwriting on the coupon was Oswald's.

On the order, there was the name of a D.F. Drittal, written in the section where a witness states that the person buying the weapon (Hidell) was a U.S. citizen and was not a felon.  The handwriting experts, Cole and Cadigan, both testified that the name D.F. Drittal was also written in Oswald's hands.

The revolver was shipped to a post office box in Dallas rented by Lee Oswald.  Cole testified that the signature and the handwriting on the post office box application belonged to Oswald.

Postal Inspector Harry Holmes testified that Oswald had previously rented a post office box in New Orleans, during the summer of 1963.  Oswald's New Orleans application and his Dallas application were found.  Unlike the Dallas post office box application, the New Orleans post office box application still had the portion which listed others who were able to receive mail at that post office box.  In the New Orleans application, Oswald included the names of both Marina Oswald and A.J. Hidell as those able to receive mail in that box.

Holmes spoke with Oswald on Sunday morning, the 24th.  Holmes asked Oswald about the Dallas post office box.  Oswald stated that he was the only one who received mail at that box and that he didn't receive any mail there that was addressed to any name other than his true name.  Holmes then asked Oswald about the box that Oswald rented in New Orleans earlier that year.  Oswald again stated that he was the only one permitted to receive mail at that p.o. box.  Holmes reminded Oswald that he (Oswald) had listed Marina Oswald as a person eligible to receive mail in that box.  Oswald's reply was basically "Well so what?  She was my wife and I see nothing wrong with that."  Holmes then reminded Oswald that one "A.J. Hidell" was also listed in the section on the application listing others eligible to receive mail in that post office box.  Holmes said that Oswald replied "I don't recall anything about that".

Oswald was caught in a lie.  The handwriting which permitted A.J. Hidell to receive mail at the New Orleans post office box belonged to Lee Oswald (per experts Cole and Cadigan).

Ballistic testing can determine whether or not an empty shell casing was fired from a specific weapon to the exclusion of every other weapon in the entire world.  Before shooting, the shell casing is placed against the breech face and the firing pin.  When the pin strikes the primer, the bullet is fired off and the shell casing is thrust against the breech face of the weapon.  This causes a permanent mark on the base of the empty shell, i.e. the distinctive fine lines etched onto the breech face put their "fingerprint" on the base of the empty shell.

Joseph Nicol (Superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation for the State of Illinois) along with Cortlandt Cunningham, Robert Frazier and Charles Killion (of the Firearms Identification Unit of the FBI Laboratory in Washington D.C.) each examined the shells found at the Tippit scene and Oswald's revolver, which he ordered from Seaport Traders, Inc.  Each of these experts determined that the shells were linked (through ballistics) to Oswald's revolver, to the exclusion of every other weapon in the world.

It was 1:05 on a Friday afternoon.....Helen Markham was on foot, walking south along Patton toward her bus stop, which was on Jefferson Boulevard. She was on her way to catch the bus that she took to work everyday. She knew that she would have to be at the bus stop before 1:12 so she was a bit impatient at being held up by the traffic as she waited to cross East Tenth street. 
Markham was just reaching the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton when she noticed Tippit's patrol car pass through the intersection, heading east along Tenth Street.  Markham testified that the patrol car pulled up to a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side of Tenth Street.  Helen Markham positively identified Lee Oswald as the man she saw talking to, and shoot, J.D. Tippit.  She testified that she saw Oswald run from the scene, heading down Patton with a gun in his hand.

Of course Mrs Markham was hysterical and obviously was mistaken in her identification which the cold chills she felt at seeing the men in the rigged line up were the means by which she identified Lee Oswald.  But the man she saw shoot officer Tippit could NOT have been Lee Oswald ....because at the very moment that Helen Markham was walking toward the intersection of Tenth and Patton Mrs Earlene Roberts was watching Lee Oswald as he stood on the sidewalk in front of her rooming house at the intersection of Beckley and Zangs at 1:04 pm. The rooming house was nearly one mile away from the place where officer Tippit was being shot.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 01:21:52 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2018, 01:17:26 PM »


Offline Van Savant

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2018, 02:07:36 PM »
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Not by a long shot. But even if he did, it doesn't make him a lone nut. He was a patsy who knew the jig was up. Not a LN.

I didn't write that he was a lone nut.  I don't believe that I inferred that either.

Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2018, 02:37:07 PM »
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Oswald's revolver did not have a bent firing pin.  In fact, the FBI used that revolver to fire test bullets for ballistic comparison purposes.  How is the revolver "rendered useless" if the FBI fired test bullets from it?  And.. the revolver certainly did NOT have a bent firing pin when Oswald fired four bullets into Tippit's body.

Now, can you prove that the revolver had a bent firing pin?

 McDonald is quoted as saying that the firing pin failed when Oswald tried to shot him in the theater Are you saying he is incorrect??
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:49:29 PM by Matt Grantham »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2018, 02:38:59 PM »
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Not by a long shot. But even if he did, it doesn't make him a lone nut. He was a patsy who knew the jig was up. Not a LN.

So Oswald is in Gomer Pyle-like bliss up to the assassination about whatever is going on.  Then it immediately dawns on him that he is going to take the fall for it.  He suddenly becomes a genius. So he does the logical thing and kills a police officer.  That is quite a fantasy tale.  The most logical reason for him to have killed Tippit is because he has just assassinated the President and has nothing to lose at that point.  He can't risk the possibility that he has already been identified as a suspect and will be arrested if he IDs himself. 

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2018, 02:38:59 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2018, 02:51:27 PM »
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Helen Markham was on foot, walking south along Patton toward her bus stop, which
was on Jefferson Boulevard.  Markham was just reaching the northwest corner of
Tenth and Patton when she noticed Tippit's patrol car pass through the
intersection, heading east along Tenth Street.  Markham testified that the
patrol car pulled up to a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side
of Tenth Street.  Helen Markham positively identified Lee Oswald as the man she
saw talking to, and shoot, J.D. Tippit.  She testified that she saw Oswald run
from the scene, heading down Patton with a gun in his hand.

~snip~
 

from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical" when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the record of her testimony."

Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."

Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous description of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her testimony reliable."




Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2018, 02:55:09 PM »
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~snip~

As for the revolver, Jim Leavelle briefly spoke with Oswald when Oswald was brought in from the theater.  Leavelle told Oswald that they could run ballistic tests on the revolver and match the revolver to the bullets taken from the officer's body, proving that the revolver taken from Oswald was the revolver responsible for the officer's death.  Oswald did not deny owning the revolver.  According to Leavelle, Oswald's only reply was "Well, you're just going to have to do it."

~snip~


Warren Commission Hearings, Volume VII
Current Section: James R. Leavelle

-snip-

Mr. Ball. You took part in the investigation, did you not, as a member of
the Dallas Police Department?


Mr. Leavelle. A minor part you might say. I didn't have much to do with
Oswald myself.


-snip-

Mr. Ball. Anybody ask him about a gun, whether or not he bought a rifle?

Mr. Leavelle I am sure they did. I remember some of them asking about
the rifle and about it being sent to the box here in Dallas but I do not recall.
I am not sure he denied it but I do not recall what his exact denial was.


Mr. Ball. You say he denied it. Do you remember whether or not he denied
that he had bought a rifle?


Mr. Leavelle. To the best of my knowledge I do. He did deny it but I would
not swear to it


Mr. Ball. Was anything said about a revolver?

Mr. Leavelle I am sure they asked him something about the revolver, too,
but I do not recall what it was.


-snip-

Mr. Ball Did you make any notes of the conversations?

Mr. Leavelle. No. I did not myself. That was the only time I ever sat in on
the interrogation of him by Captain Fritz or anyone.


Mr. Ball. Is that the first time you had seen Oswald?

Mr. Leavelle. No; I had seen him of course, the first day he was arrested
and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him to and from the
jail and of course, I had saw him at the showups, what have you.


Mr. Ball. Had you ever talked to him before?

Mr. Leavelle. No; I had never talked to him before.

-snip-

Mr. Stern. He engaged in banter with you and police officials?

Mr. Leavelle. Not with me because I didn't have occasion to question him,
but he did always smile and never hesitated for an answer, always had an answer.


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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2018, 02:55:09 PM »