Author Topic: Framing a patsy  (Read 40297 times)

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Offline Lee Johnson

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2012, 09:45:54 PM »
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I'm convinced it was Oswald and Oswald alone based on the totality of evidence.  However, one of the often unstated factors in discussing various alternative scenarios is specifying Oswald's exact role.  Is the premise that Oswald was entirely innocent, involved in a conspiracy only indirectly, or an active member perhaps even as the shooter?  CTers usually are not specific on Oswald himself in discussing the evidence.  They simply defend him against every piece of evidence as though it's all one and the same regardless of his role.  However, the strongest conspiracy scenario is to place Oswald in the 6th window as a shooter.  Maybe the only shooter but recruited and assisted by some unknown entity.  It would avoid the necessity of disputing a mountain of evidence that is consistent with his guilt.  The absurd lengths they go to dispute this evidence undermines any real credibility in a conspiracy that must involve Oswald doubles, Z-film alterations, SS participation, body thefts and other absurdities necessary to support these bizarre conspiracy scenarios. However, if you accept Oswald's participation as a shooter then you have a more plausible conspiracy case.  Although one I still believe is lacking in any credible evidence.  As is stands now, CTers are simply not credible in defending Oswald in a passive or non-participant role.  The evidence and circumstances do not support that interpretation of events.

I too have been surprised that CTers go down the road of denying Oswald's culpability as well -- they deny every piece of evidence. I have no idea why they do that, and yes, it undermines their credibility. But their positing these fantastical scenarios has an unintended effect -- CTers make it very difficult to discuss scenarios involving Oswald. That's why I kidded around and suggested that some CTers were actually intelligence plants -- to keep generating these scenarios and muddying the waters so it became impossible to actually get through to conspiracy involving Oswald.

For example, there are some suspicious things going on. George DeM, for example, as well as the Paines' connection to intelligence. It is certainly likely that George was asked to get to know Oswald, and less likely, but possible, that George reported back that Oswald had possibly taken a shot at Walker. If this were so, then someone knew that there was a ready-made Lone Nut in Dallas. You keep an eye on him. It is likely that Oswald got his job at the TSBD innocently, but this was reported back. The Lone Nut is now in place, and nothing was done to help him. Now it's just a question of guiding, not conspiring, the motorcade in front of that workplace and see if the Lone Nut takes a shot. There's an air wall between the conspiracy, which was tiny and perhaps only involved one person, probably a mid-level operative in the CIA or other spooky agency, and Oswald.

Of course, this is speculation, but at least it's somewhat plausible.

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 10:16:08 PM »
There's simply no way that conspirators could control the movements of the patsy-to-be.  If the patsy is seen anywhere besides the sixth floor by a single person, the conspiracy is exposed.  Conspirators could try to control the patsy's movements, but they could not be guaranteed that the patsy would be where they want him.  Therefore, because of the uncertainty, they would not even attempt this.  They would have went a different route.

Offline John Murray

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 10:32:56 PM »
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I too have been surprised that CTers go down the road of denying Oswald's culpability as well -- they deny every piece of evidence. I have no idea why they do that, and yes, it undermines their credibility. But their positing these fantastical scenarios has an unintended effect -- CTers make it very difficult to discuss scenarios involving Oswald. That's why I kidded around and suggested that some CTers were actually intelligence plants -- to keep generating these scenarios and muddying the waters so it became impossible to actually get through to conspiracy involving Oswald.

For example, there are some suspicious things going on. George DeM, for example, as well as the Paines' connection to intelligence. It is certainly likely that George was asked to get to know Oswald, and less likely, but possible, that George reported back that Oswald had possibly taken a shot at Walker. If this were so, then someone knew that there was a ready-made Lone Nut in Dallas. You keep an eye on him. It is likely that Oswald got his job at the TSBD innocently, but this was reported back. The Lone Nut is now in place, and nothing was done to help him. Now it's just a question of guiding, not conspiring, the motorcade in front of that workplace and see if the Lone Nut takes a shot. There's an air wall between the conspiracy, which was tiny and perhaps only involved one person, probably a mid-level operative in the CIA or other spooky agency, and Oswald.

Of course, this is speculation, but at least it's somewhat plausible.

I agree with your first paragraph.  I think it's somewhat incredible to suggest Oswald was framed - as Bill suggests below, if Oswald was meant to be a patsy, there would have needed to be a lot more control of his movements to ensure he was where he needed to be.  And there is absolutely no evidence of this.  I also tend to agree that the most aggressive CTers tend to focus only on clearing Oswald (which is pretty tough to do) and have lost any focus on trying to find out what really happened on that day.

I have a bit more trouble with the second paragraph though.  I don't think there's any Lone Nut in Oswald whatsoever, and in spite of the heckling I've taken for my feelings about it, I think his midnight press conference is the most telling 45 seconds of the entire day.  The careful and calm way in which he "denies" his involvement - he actually only denies being charged.  It seems that the "Oswald is innocent" camp feels that this is proof he's just a patsy, but I think it proves exactly the opposite.  Those 30-40 seconds, to me, show an operative caught behind enemy lines, reciting a carefully planned denial that isn't far above name,rank, and serial number.

Offline Brian Walker

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 02:08:38 AM »
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I agree with your first paragraph.  I think it's somewhat incredible to suggest Oswald was framed - as Bill suggests below, if Oswald was meant to be a patsy, there would have needed to be a lot more control of his movements to ensure he was where he needed to be.  And there is absolutely no evidence of this. 

There also would be a need to control the movements of everyone else in the building, and I have never seen any evidence of that..

Offline John Murray

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 02:51:12 AM »
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There also would be a need to control the movements of everyone else in the building, and I have never seen any evidence of that..

Exactly.  For everything to have worked out the way it did would have taken - in my view - a team of at least 5 people.  Someone would have to be on the fifth floor, watching Jarman, Norman and Williams.  Someone would have to watch the stairwell to make sure Oswald didn't come down, or, if you will, go up.  Someone on the first floor to monitor who tried to go up.  Someone on the second floor to make sure Oswald got there on time.  And someone on the Sixth floor to put earmuffs on Oswald and send him downstairs (or upstairs from the First floor, whatever one believes).  And to top it all off, all five (at least) of this team have to completely avoid detection in a building that has about 20-30 people in it, all coming and going excitedly due to a Presidential motorcade.  Seems like a snap to me.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2012, 05:52:26 AM »
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Exactly.  For everything to have worked out the way it did would have taken - in my view - a team of at least 5 people.  Someone would have to be on the fifth floor, watching Jarman, Norman and Williams.  Someone would have to watch the stairwell to make sure Oswald didn't come down, or, if you will, go up.  Someone on the first floor to monitor who tried to go up.  Someone on the second floor to make sure Oswald got there on time.  And someone on the Sixth floor to put earmuffs on Oswald and send him downstairs (or upstairs from the First floor, whatever one believes).  And to top it all off, all five (at least) of this team have to completely avoid detection in a building that has about 20-30 people in it, all coming and going excitedly due to a Presidential motorcade.  Seems like a snap to me.

According to the WC the lifts were locked on 5. According to the WC there was someone on the floor between the lifts and the stairwell. According to the WC there was someone between the lifts and the stairwell on the second floor too. They were found there a minute or so after the shots. Not a bad way to control movement around the 6th floor is it?

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2012, 06:03:35 AM »
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There's simply no way that conspirators could control the movements of the patsy-to-be.  If the patsy is seen anywhere besides the sixth floor by a single person, the conspiracy is exposed.  Conspirators could try to control the patsy's movements, but they could not be guaranteed that the patsy would be where they want him.  Therefore, because of the uncertainty, they would not even attempt this.  They would have went a different route.

Bill, peoples actions may be controlled even without them understanding what the significance is at the time.