Author Topic: Framing a patsy  (Read 41946 times)

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Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2012, 06:21:17 PM »
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Why do you think it would take a lot of manipulation to bring the motorcade in front of the TSBD? Anyone with a map of Dallas could tell you this was the most direct route from Love Field through downtown Dallas to the Trade Mart. That simple part of the plan could have been figured out months beforehand.

Months beforehand is impossible.  The decision to go to the Trade Mart was made only days before the assassination by the advance SS agent.  So no one even at the highest levels could know that fact until only a few days before the assassination.  To ensure the motorcade went past the TSBD would have required SS participation and the highest levels of government.  No small scale operation.  

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2012, 06:33:43 PM »
Friday, 15 c. November 1963
 "A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown?

 
What was announced on this date was not a change in the motorcade route, but the site selected for the luncheon. There had been a feud
over which site to use, and selection of the Trade Mart was made by White House aide Ken O'Donnell, in consultation with Bill Moyers,
and was due to "unbearable" pressure from Connally to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart instead of the Women's Building.
Dallas SS agent in charge Forrest Sorrels then selected the Elm Street route as the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart, considering
the presence of a raised divider which would have to be driven over if Main Street were used to reach the expressway. Continuing down
Main to Industrial Boulevard was rejected, in consultation with Asst. Police Chief George Lumpkin, because of the undesirable neighborhood."

 
From HSCA v. 11:
 
(Advance man) Bruno's explanation of how the matter was finally resolved is found in his journal in the entries of November 14 and 15, 1963:
November 14-- The feud became so bitter that I went to the White House to ask Bill Moyers, then Deputy Director of the Peace Corps, and close
to both Connally and Johnson, if he would try to settle the dispute for the good of the President and his party. On this day, Kenney O'Donnell
decided that there was no other way but to go to the mart. November 15--The White House announced that the Trade Mart had been approved. I met
with O'Donnell and Moyers who said that Connally was unbearable and on the verge of cancelling the trip. They decided they had to let the
Governor have his way. (149) . . .
 
As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was
the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented
a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was proached from the Elm Street ramp
instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and
cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at
the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street.
Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over
the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make
clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp
to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then
proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191)

George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security
planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching
the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and
broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds on Industrial Boulevard.
(194)

Advance Agent Lawson informed committee investigators that he had nothing to do with the selection of the Main-Houston-Elm turn before November
14, since only Main Street, not Dealey Plaza, had been selected for the motorcade at that time. He did not specify the exact date on which the
turn was selected nor did he identify the person selecting the turn.(195) Sorrels stated that he and Lawson did drive the entire route together,
but did not specify when this occurred. (196)

Sorrels' Warren Commission exhibit No. 4 suggested that both men drove the entire route on November 18. (197) It is not certain that both
men knew about the turn earlier than this date.

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2012, 06:57:57 PM »
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Friday, 15 c. November 1963
 "A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown?

 
What was announced on this date was not a change in the motorcade route, but the site selected for the luncheon. There had been a feud
over which site to use, and selection of the Trade Mart was made by White House aide Ken O'Donnell, in consultation with Bill Moyers,
and was due to "unbearable" pressure from Connally to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart instead of the Women's Building.
Dallas SS agent in charge Forrest Sorrels then selected the Elm Street route as the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart, considering
the presence of a raised divider which would have to be driven over if Main Street were used to reach the expressway. Continuing down
Main to Industrial Boulevard was rejected, in consultation with Asst. Police Chief George Lumpkin, because of the undesirable neighborhood."

 
From HSCA v. 11:
 
(Advance man) Bruno's explanation of how the matter was finally resolved is found in his journal in the entries of November 14 and 15, 1963:
November 14-- The feud became so bitter that I went to the White House to ask Bill Moyers, then Deputy Director of the Peace Corps, and close
to both Connally and Johnson, if he would try to settle the dispute for the good of the President and his party. On this day, Kenney O'Donnell
decided that there was no other way but to go to the mart. November 15--The White House announced that the Trade Mart had been approved. I met
with O'Donnell and Moyers who said that Connally was unbearable and on the verge of cancelling the trip. They decided they had to let the
Governor have his way. (149) . . .
 
As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was
the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented
a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was proached from the Elm Street ramp
instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and
cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at
the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street.
Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over
the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make
clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp
to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then
proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191)

George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security
planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching
the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and
broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds on Industrial Boulevard.
(194)

Advance Agent Lawson informed committee investigators that he had nothing to do with the selection of the Main-Houston-Elm turn before November
14, since only Main Street, not Dealey Plaza, had been selected for the motorcade at that time. He did not specify the exact date on which the
turn was selected nor did he identify the person selecting the turn.(195) Sorrels stated that he and Lawson did drive the entire route together,
but did not specify when this occurred. (196)

Sorrels' Warren Commission exhibit No. 4 suggested that both men drove the entire route on November 18. (197) It is not certain that both
men knew about the turn earlier than this date.


This proves my original point which was that if the motorcade route was altered to ensure that it went by the TSBD because Oswald worked there, then it is a high level job involving a large group of conspirators.  It's not a simple frame up to pull that off per Colin's scenario which is premised on a conspiracy not requiring a great deal of manipulation to frame Oswald.  It's complete bunk, though, that the motorcade route was altered for this purpose.  I'm just playing along.

Offline Anthony Marsh

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2012, 07:15:34 PM »
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Richard, you hit the nail on the head.
This is all the evidence you need to prove that there was no conspiracy, Oswald applied for 4 jobs in Oct63 and was rejected from them all!
If Oswald was successful at any of these job applications, JFK would have lived through 22/11/63!
At 17:35 in the following video the locations of these jobs is revealed to be no where near the Presidential Parade!
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JohnM


Boy, you really are clueless. If you think Oswald was the assassin he could have shot from anywhere. Not just the TSBD. If he had gotten a job at the Dal-Tex you'd be saying the same thing
about the Dal-Tex instead of the TSBD. The fact is that the motorcade was designed to pass hundreds of office buildings. That's politics.
Now if you instead prefer all powerful conspirators then they would be able to change the route of the motorcade to take it past Oswald wherever he would be working.
What about the shooter on the grassy knoll. Do you require that he have a job which placed him in that spot? Maybe assistant groundskeeper or parking lot attendant?
Your logic is infantile.

Offline Bob Mady

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2012, 07:25:03 PM »
From Wiki -
George de Mohrenschildt's wife and daughter said that it was George de Mohrenschildt who secured the job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall located in Dallas, for Oswald,
this was in 1962.

Following information came from John Judge - Guns and Butter program
A Crypto clearance (high level of security) was necessary to get a job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
Approval by ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) was necessary to get a job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall - was a sub-contractor to the CIA developing reconnaissance photos, this is why a crypto clearance and approval was necessary.
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall - Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible for developing spy photos of Russian missiles in Cuba that were presented to JFK as evidence. Yes this is known to be true - per John Judge

(I would have thought that Lee Harvey Oswald's crypto clearance would have been revoked after his defection to USSR and him claiming to give the Russians U-2 secrets. Also Oswald worked as a photographic expert developing photographs for Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall so when Oswald said he could prove the backyard photos were fakes, he really had the expertise to do so.)

George de Mohrenschildt's
Kicked out of France for spying
Arrested in Corpus Cristi for spying
Kicked out of Mexico for spying

Following from JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters James Douglass
George de Mohrenschildt was called to testify before the HSCA - he was murdered before he could testify (officially a suicide, grand jury listened to a tape that included the gunshot, but jury commented hearing a house alarm sound just moments before the gunshot was heard, which signified the presence of an intruder in the house)


« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 07:27:36 PM
by Bob Mady
»

Offline Bob Mady

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2012, 07:45:25 PM »
From John Judge - Guns and Butter program
End of WW2 von Braun & other rocket scientist give themselves up to the Americans, Clay Shaw was involved.
 Claw Shaw kicked out of Italy for spying - PERMADEX (Trade Mart)
   Clay Shaw worked for Trade Mart in New Orleans - CIA
    Oswald was arrested for protesting outside of Trade Mart in New Orleans
     JFK motorcade was on the way to the Dallas Trade Mart
      911 - World Trade Towers

Major-General Dr Walter Robert Dornberger (von Brauns's boss) was captured and set to to be judged for war crimes.
von Braun demanded Walter Robert Dornberger's release in exchange for rocket work.
Walter Robert Dornberger went to work for Bell Helicoptor
Michael Paine worked for Walter Robert Dornberger at Bell Helicoptor
Ruth Paine is from Forbe family
Ruth Paine is now known to have been a "witting" CIA asset
Ruth Paines sister did work for the CIA   

Offline Ron Smith

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2012, 09:38:27 PM »
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From John Judge - Guns and Butter program
End of WW2 von Braun & other rocket scientist give themselves up to the Americans, Clay Shaw was involved.
 Claw Shaw kicked out of Italy for spying - PERMADEX (Trade Mart)
   Clay Shaw worked for Trade Mart in New Orleans - CIA
    Oswald was arrested for protesting outside of Trade Mart in New Orleans
     JFK motorcade was on the way to the Dallas Trade Mart
      911 - World Trade Towers

Major-General Dr Walter Robert Dornberger (von Brauns's boss) was captured and set to to be judged for war crimes.
von Braun demanded Walter Robert Dornberger's release in exchange for rocket work.
Walter Robert Dornberger went to work for Bell Helicoptor
Michael Paine worked for Walter Robert Dornberger at Bell Helicoptor
Ruth Paine is from Forbe family
Ruth Paine is now known to have been a "witting" CIA asset
Ruth Paines sister did work for the CIA   
Lincoln had a secratary named Kennedy. Kennedy had asecratary named Lincoln etc.......................................