Author Topic: Framing a patsy  (Read 41939 times)

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Online Colin Crow

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2012, 07:54:48 AM »
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"Bring your rifle to work, Lee" on the same day the president is passing by and "Give the rifle to us and go wait in the lunchroom" and he can't figure out the real plan? He left money for Marina and his wedding ring behind. I think he might have been clued in something was up.



He left most of his money behind. He kept $13 from memory. If he planned to be caught it's too much. If he planned to escape, not enough. Maybe he thought someone would be paying for his transportation and expenses. A foiled assassination attempt by a pro Castro commies. Finds a way to get to Cuba, assisted by Castro. Wonder what the reaction would be?

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2012, 03:41:45 PM »
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So just humor me for a bit. Let's say Oswald bought the rifle and pistol, shot at Walker, and somehow others found out about his little misadventure. Let's say via George De M. He is a person of interest now. He moves to NO. Hands out proCastro literature goes to Mexico and returns to Dallas. This may or may not be controlled by others at this time. He obtains a job at the TSBD. This does not require manipulation, he is just there. Now we have a left wing nut, already capable of attempted assassination, in place weeks before the motorcade. This may have required very little or no manipulation to this point. Only knowledge. The trick is, getting Oswald to bring the rifle to work and maybe keeping him somewhere away from watching JFK.

What are the odds that JFKs motorcade goes by the building he is working in?  Are you saying that happened by chance or design in this tale?  Either way its farfetched that JFK would either drive by the building Oswald is working in by chance or that the conspirators could manipulate the motorcade to ensure it did so (and that would require a lot of manipulation at the highest levels).  This is all ad hoc reasoning after the fact to shoehorn a conspiracy narrative into the facts.  The motorcade route wasn't even decided upon until a few days before the assassination.  So the fantasy conspirators would have to pull all of this together with Oswald in the space of that limited time.  And he would have to be enough of a dunce to bring and hand his rifle over to someone on the day of the motorcade and then go into hiding.  Not very plausible. 

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2012, 04:09:58 PM »
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What are the odds that JFKs motorcade goes by the building he is working in?  Are you saying that happened by chance or design in this tale?  Either way its farfetched that JFK would either drive by the building Oswald is working in by chance or that the conspirators could manipulate the motorcade to ensure it did so (and that would require a lot of manipulation at the highest levels).  This is all ad hoc reasoning after the fact to shoehorn a conspiracy narrative into the facts.  The motorcade route wasn't even decided upon until a few days before the assassination.  So the fantasy conspirators would have to pull all of this together with Oswald in the space of that limited time.  And he would have to be enough of a dunce to bring and hand his rifle over to someone on the day of the motorcade and then go into hiding.  Not very plausible. 


Richard, you hit the nail on the head.
This is all the evidence you need to prove that there was no conspiracy, Oswald applied for 4 jobs in Oct63 and was rejected from them all!
If Oswald was successful at any of these job applications, JFK would have lived through 22/11/63!
At 17:35 in the following video the locations of these jobs is revealed to be no where near the Presidential Parade!
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JohnM

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Framing a patsy
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2012, 04:44:18 PM »
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    I agree with your first paragraph.  I think it's somewhat incredible to suggest Oswald was framed - as Bill suggests below, if Oswald was meant to be a patsy, there would have needed to be a lot more control of his movements to ensure he was where he needed to be.  And there is absolutely no evidence of this.  I also tend to agree that the most aggressive CTers tend to focus only on clearing Oswald (which is pretty tough to do) and have lost any focus on trying to find out what really happened on that day.

    I have a bit more trouble with the second paragraph though.  I don't think there's any Lone Nut in Oswald whatsoever, and in spite of the heckling I've taken for my feelings about it, I think his midnight press conference is the most telling 45 seconds of the entire day.  The careful and calm way in which he "denies" his involvement - he actually only denies being charged.  It seems that the "Oswald is innocent" camp feels that this is proof he's just a patsy, but I think it proves exactly the opposite.  Those 30-40 seconds, to me, show an operative caught behind enemy lines, reciting a carefully planned denial that isn't far above name,rank, and serial number.

    (Hypothetically) If Oswald read from the Communist literature he had and the socialist newspapers he received, he would have been fed notions like:

    • left-leaners are routinely "shot" while on the way to the police station
    • that all "authorities" are monolithically ultra-right and to be resisted
    • in America--one with a political motivation should seek out the ACLU
    • having a political motivation justifies the action and reduces the victim to a symbol
    • demand your "rights" (Oswald even mentioned his hygienic rights)
    • deny all involvement (why help the dreaded authorities and ruin the ACLU's case?)

    The Warren Commission couldn't promote too much of that interpretation because it was inconclusive and many Americans identified with some of what Oswald represented and some supported the ACLU (for example: Bob Dylan got into hot water with an Oswald comment in 1964).

    In 1970, a writer named Albert H. Newman released his book "The Assassination of John F. Kennedy: The Reasons Why" that did explore the influence of the literature on Oswald. Newman added something else: that Oswald was listening to Radio Havana in Dallas (Newman found that Oswald's radio had a shortwave band and that the English-language broadcasts began at 9 and 11 evenings CST and reached Dallas; he suggested this was why Oswald liked to be alone in his boardinghouse room).

    Newman:

    "A personal listening check in the summer of 1966 with the cheapest shortwave transistor portable I could find (it was under $12) disclosed that in the Dallas area Radio Havana was consistently the strongest signal in the forty-nine-meter band (at 6.135 megacycles), registering two or three times the strength observable in New York."

    It was suggested that Oswald would not have gone out without a plan and exit strategy on the scale of the Walker shooting. But, if we believe Marina, one interpretation of an April 1963 incident has Oswald taking his pistol and saying he's going after Nixon because of the headline in that morning's Dallas paper: "Nixon Calls for Decision to Force Reds Out of Cuba". There are other interpretations of the incident, but that one would suggest that Oswald was willing to throw caution to the wind, act impulsively and take his chances.

    Seems his targets were escalating as he became emboldened with having avoided consequences: Gen. Walker, former-VP Nixon, and finally Kennedy.

    If he was set-up, Marina revealing the hotheaded Nixon episode to, say, one of the deMohrenschildts would put him further onto the conspirators' radar. They now knew he capable of going after a national leader.[/list]
    « Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 05:03:54 PM
    by Jerry Organ
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    Offline Paul Zwertbroek

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    Re: Framing a patsy
    « Reply #25 on: September 05, 2012, 05:07:44 PM »
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    Oswald applied for 4 jobs in Oct63 and was rejected from them all!
    If Oswald was successful at any of these job applications, JFK would have lived through 22/11/63!....


    JohnM


    No there would have been another patsy ..

    Offline Brian Walker

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    Re: Framing a patsy
    « Reply #26 on: September 05, 2012, 06:00:48 PM »
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    So just humor me for a bit. Let's say Oswald bought the rifle and pistol, shot at Walker, and somehow others found out about his little misadventure. Let's say via George De M. He is a person of interest now. He moves to NO. Hands out proCastro literature goes to Mexico and returns to Dallas. This may or may not be controlled by others at this time. He obtains a job at the TSBD. This does not require manipulation, he is just there. Now we have a left wing nut, already capable of attempted assassination, in place weeks before the motorcade. This may have required very little or no manipulation to this point. Only knowledge. The trick is, getting Oswald to bring the rifle to work and maybe keeping him somewhere away from watching JFK.

    The chance of this is very very small..Now lets throw in the fact that Oswald was allowed to get away and give a press conference and meet with his family...The whole theory just becomes really silly..Like someone who is sowrroied about getting caught they go through all of this, but the let Oswald talk to the world..Not going to happen..

    The simple facts that Oswald was allowed to talk and he and nobody else had their movements restricted that day in themsleves makes a conspiracy very very unlikely..



    « Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 06:06:20 PM
    by Brian Walker
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    Offline Jerry Organ

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    Re: Framing a patsy
    « Reply #27 on: September 05, 2012, 06:19:10 PM »
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    Why do you think it would take a lot of manipulation to bring the motorcade in front of the TSBD? Anyone with a map of Dallas could tell you this was the most direct route from Love Field through downtown Dallas to the Trade Mart. That simple part of the plan could have been figured out months beforehand.

    From memory: the Main Street portion of the route that was taken was referred to as the traditional parade route through Dallas. However, the parades and such tended to go the other way. Still, the same route could be used going either way.

    From the WCR: The Dallas SS office were first notified of the visit and given three potential luncheon sites to check out on Nov. 4. Kenneth O'Donnell decided on the luncheon site on Nov. 14, the day after SS advance-agent SA Lawson firsthand evaluated the security at the tentative site: the Trade Mart, and reported back. Lawson and SAIC-Dallas Sorrells then had to figure out the motorcade route. They established the route (timing it by driving over it and taking into account DPD changes) on Nov. 18.

    Conspirators would have known for sure of the luncheon site and likely motorcade route by Nov. 14. Prior to that, most would have assumed there would be a Main Street (or downtown street) parade because of the need to get votes. However, they had no way of knowing until Nov. 14 if the motorcade was go through Dealey Plaza on Main (as one of the sites, I believe, would have meant), or go the Elm Street way. The Main Street straight-through-route would complicate things for placing a gunman in the Depository.

    Then again, if the motorcade did go straight through DP on Main, the conspirators could simply have Oswald--assuming they wanted him as patsy that badly--detained and being set-up on the South Knoll. But then again, the South Knoll is pretty exposed and would have had more people there if the motorcade had gone through on Main. Well then, they shift the firing point to the building under construction.