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Author Topic: Oswald's phone call  (Read 2391 times)

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2018, 12:24:33 AM »
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So the story by Hurts Wife that he said it before his death is incorrect? According to Treon she copied it out of a piece of paper in the trash  Even if you are correct about the note how does any of this cast doubt on Ms Treon's statements?

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2018, 12:24:33 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2018, 12:27:00 AM »
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So the story by Hurts Wife that he said it before his death is incorrect?

1970 was before his death.


Quote
Even if you are correct about the note how does any of this cast doubt on Ms Treon's statements?

Who is/was Ms Treon and what were her statements?

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2018, 12:35:45 AM »
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1970 was before his death.


Who is/was Ms Treon and what were her statements?

 For some reason Grover Proctor's site is now down, after being up all day I assume you had nothing to do with that? You can hear Proctor explain it at the early part of the Youtube video whose link I provided on my original post here In the meantime here is a partial summary of her story

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Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2018, 12:51:02 AM »
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For some reason Grover Proctor's site is now down, after being up all day I assume you had nothing to do with that? You can hear Proctor explain it at the early part of the Youtube video whose link I provided on my original post here In the meantime here is a partial summary of her story

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Is it really her story though?

"Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
 events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
 Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
 sign it on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald."

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2018, 01:29:31 AM »
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Is it really her story though?

"Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
 events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
 Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
 sign it on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald."


 I am not sure what you are referring to exactly Why did she need to sign anything? For what reason?

 Here is an interview between Proctor and Hurt

Excerpts of Interview with John David Hurt

PROCTOR:
Do you know any reason why Oswald would have tried to call you?
HURT:
I do not. I never heard of the man before President Kennedy's death. I was a
great Kennedyphile, and I would have been more inclined to kill him than
anything else.
PROCTOR:
Oswald, you mean.
HURT:
Yes
PROCTOR:
Did you place a call that day to the Dallas jail?
HURT:
No, I did not, and he didn't place a call to me either, I don't know how I
ever got [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Do you have any explanation as to why your name ...
HURT:
None whatever.
PROCTOR:
Do you have the telephone number 833-1253 (the second number on the slip) in
any of your business associations?
HURT:
No.
PROCTOR:
Did you in 1963?
HURT:
No, I did not.
PROCTOR:
That was the other number listed on the telephone slip beside your name.
HURT:
I don't know. My number has been the same for, oh, I'd say forty years.
PROCTOR:
In speaking with another investigator that called you about six years ago,
you indicated at that time that during World War II you were in the
Counterintelligence Division. Is that correct?
HURT:
That's correct.
PROCTOR:
You left that, and went into investigative work after the war.
HURT:
I was in insurance claims adjusting work, and I worked for a year for the
state as a [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Were you ever involved as an agent in the Defense Department's Industrial
Security Command?
HURT:
No, I was not.
PROCTOR:
So, once again, you have no knowledge of any call made from your number or
to your number that day?
HURT:
No knowledge whatsover.

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2018, 01:29:31 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2018, 01:32:22 AM »
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I am not sure what you are referring to exactly Why did she need to sign anything? For what reason?

Why was she asked to sign it and why did she refuse?

 
Quote
Here is an interview between Proctor and Hurt

Excerpts of Interview with John David Hurt

PROCTOR:
Do you know any reason why Oswald would have tried to call you?
HURT:
I do not. I never heard of the man before President Kennedy's death. I was a
great Kennedyphile, and I would have been more inclined to kill him than
anything else.
PROCTOR:
Oswald, you mean.
HURT:
Yes
PROCTOR:
Did you place a call that day to the Dallas jail?
HURT:
No, I did not, and he didn't place a call to me either, I don't know how I
ever got [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Do you have any explanation as to why your name ...
HURT:
None whatever.
PROCTOR:
Do you have the telephone number 833-1253 (the second number on the slip) in
any of your business associations?
HURT:
No.
PROCTOR:
Did you in 1963?
HURT:
No, I did not.
PROCTOR:
That was the other number listed on the telephone slip beside your name.
HURT:
I don't know. My number has been the same for, oh, I'd say forty years.
PROCTOR:
In speaking with another investigator that called you about six years ago,
you indicated at that time that during World War II you were in the
Counterintelligence Division. Is that correct?
HURT:
That's correct.
PROCTOR:
You left that, and went into investigative work after the war.
HURT:
I was in insurance claims adjusting work, and I worked for a year for the
state as a [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Were you ever involved as an agent in the Defense Department's Industrial
Security Command?
HURT:
No, I was not.
PROCTOR:
So, once again, you have no knowledge of any call made from your number or
to your number that day?
HURT:
No knowledge whatsover.

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2018, 01:43:10 AM »
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Why was she asked to sign it and why did she refuse?

 I asked you what it was that she was signing

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2018, 02:13:37 AM »
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I asked you what it was that she was signing

From the link that you provided:
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"One of the ladies, Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
 events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
 Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
 sign it
on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald.

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2018, 02:13:37 AM »


Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2018, 04:59:18 AM »
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From the link that you provided:
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"One of the ladies, Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
 events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
 Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
 sign it
on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald.


The Affidavit and Exhibit A. At some point in early 1968, someone with much (but, as it turned out, somewhat flawed) information about Mrs. Treon's testimony concerning the Raleigh Call, prepared a statement in proper affidavit form ("Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, of lawful age, being first duly sworn, deposes and says as follows...." etc.). Attached to it was a copy of her LD call slip, marked "Exhibit A."
Who would have done this, and more to the point, who would have had sufficient legal standing and knowledge to write it in correct form? Sheriff Owen immediately comes to mind, and this is bolstered by the fact that the document is written in and for Greene County, Missouri. However, Sheriff Owen told the HSCA that "he did not recall helping her prepare any kind of affidavit about the information." (Below is an excerpt of the affidavit, photocopied from the actual carbon copy made at the time the affidavit was originally typed.)

Another possibility, though perhaps less likely, is that the FBI may have prepared the affidavit after their interview with Mrs. Treon. They did, after all, take away with them her LD slip, which would become Exhibit A. But would they have prepared an affidavit headed "State of Missouri / County of Greene"?
Mrs. Treon never saw this document until about 10 years after her interview with the FBI, and she certainly never signed it (therefore it was never notarized). When attorney Bernard Fensterwald first sent me a copy of the affidavit, he told me that he assumed Mrs. Treon refused to sign it on advice from her lawyer, though this does not appear to have been the case.
It became clear that Mrs. Treon had not seen the contents of "her" affidavit when HSCA Special Counsel Surell Brady asked her about some of the things contained in it. Brady therefore sent Mrs. Treon a copy of the document, and asked her to respond to two sets of questions concerning it: "(1) Did you give the information in the affidavit? If so, when and to whom? Was the affidavit ever signed by you and notarized? (2) Is the information contained in the affidavit correct and accurate? If not, please indicate on the affidavit itself any inaccuracies or misstatements."
As it turned out, it would be a trash can that would provide Mrs. Treon with her biggest problem with what appeared in the document. Here is how the original, unedited version of the affidavit (written as if in first person by Mrs. Treon) describes the series of events after Mrs. Swinney failed to place Oswald's call:
A few moments later, Mrs. Swinney tore the page off her notation pad and threw it in the waste paper basket. I think the time of the Oswald call would be about 10:45 p.m. and Mrs. Swinney left at around 11:00 p.m. or just after.
When she walked out of the room, I got up from my position, walked to the waste paper basket and took the piece of paper out. It was just an unofficial piece of paper from a pad with details of the call. This is normal procedure. In a long distance call, an operator will scribble out details and only if the call is completed will she transfer this to an official ticket.
I immediately noted all the details made by Mrs. Swinney and made out a long distance call ticket. I threw this scrap of paper back into the waste paper basket. At the time I didn't even think about keeping it. All I wanted was a souvenir.
Upon reading the document, Mrs. Treon was particularly upset with the above "trash diving" characterization. It is good that she had the opportunity to set the record straight, because that section led some who read it to believe it was a very weak link in her story.
When all that was available to researchers was this unrevised, unedited, inaccurate copy of the affidavit (and its Exhibit A, the LD call slip), the "second hand" depiction of Mrs. Treon's going through the trash can for information about the call caused some to doubt that the call ever existed. In 1970, researcher Paul Hoch, among the first to comment on the Raleigh Call, used the trash can incident to conclude that an inebriated John David Hurt must have attempted to place a crank call into the jail to Oswald and that Mrs. Treon "picked up the wrong piece of paper the one relating to Hurt's attempted call to Oswald and recorded it as if it were the call from Oswald (probably to attorney Abt) which she had just witnessed." (See below for more on Hoch's theory.)
Mrs. Treon, however, unequivocally stated that whoever wrote up the affidavit document got that part of it very wrong. In the corrected copy of the affidavit that she returned to the HSCA, she wrote this about what Mrs. Swinney did with the LD slip she had written out: "I did not say this. I do not know what Mrs. Swinney did with her L.D. ticket."
And concerning the assertion that she relied on waste paper from a trash can for her information, she wrote this: "I did not say all this. I was asked if I knew what Mrs. Swinney did with her ticket. I said I had no idea, that tickets on L.D. calls not completed were not normally kept but I did not know what she did with it. I heard Oswald place the call give his name etc. as I was on the line." Mrs. Treon did suggest, though, that had the FBI asked her what Mrs. Swinney did with her LD call slip, it would have been logical for her to tell them that she probably threw it away, though she does not know that for certain.

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2018, 12:01:46 AM »
 Just to simplify this story It appears no one who prepared the affidavit in question, but when she was asked if she would sign Ms Treon simply pointed out that the information about the trash was incorrect Sounds like a ploy by someone

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Re: Oswald's phone call
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2018, 12:01:46 AM »