The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?

[Bob Prudhomme]

From the Warren Commission testimony of James "Ike" Altgens:

"Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.
Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Am I wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony the car couldn't have moved very far down Elm Street between the time you took Exhibit No. 203, which you took when the first shot was fired, and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the last shot was fired?
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I have to take into consideration the law governing photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras--lenses--and while my camera may have been set on a distance of 30 feet, there is a plus or minus, area in which the focus still is maintained. I figure that this is approximately 30 feet because that's what I have measured on my camera.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away?
Mr. ALTGENS - But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 15 feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet. I believe, if you will let me say something further here about this picture----
Mr. LIEBELER - Go ahead.
Mr. ALTGENS - Possibly I could step this off myself from this position, this approximate position where I was standing and step off the distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some marker that I can find in the area and I can probably step it off or measure it off and get the exact footage. I was just going by the markings on my camera."

[Joe Elliott]

Since when does a rifle sound like a firecracker, especially when you are within 25 yards of the muzzle and the muzzle is pointing in your direction?

Ever stop and think about why James "Ike" Altgens didn't hear the first shot until he snapped the photo at z255?

Altgens was 25 yards from the muzzle? Using Don Roberdeau?s map, I find Altgens was at z255, just beyond where the limousine would reach at z313, 90 yards away. Not 25 yards.



Decibel levels go down by 6 every time the distance from the sound source is doubled.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Acoustic/isprob2.html



The following list:

http://www.metrogun.com/db_list.html

shows:

firecracker:  150 db
rifle:  163 db


This list does not specify the distance from the rifle or the firecracker or what kind of firecracker or rifle they are talking about. But it does give us a rough measure.


This implies that a firecracker at 20 yards away would be as loud as a rifle at 90 yards away. It is quite possible that Altgens did not know whether he was hearing a rifle from 90 yards away or a firecracker that was closer.





As far as why didn?t Altgens hear a shot until z255, I would say that most witnesses did hear the first shot, at around z153. Did not recognize it as a shot. Dismissed it as a backfire or firecracker. And forgot about it. And continued to excitedly watch JFK and Jackie during the few seconds they would be close to them. They only remembered the shots that occurred after they realized something seems to be terribly wrong.

[John Anderson]

As far as why didn?t Altgens hear a shot until z255, I would say that most witnesses did hear the first shot, at around z153. Did not recognize it as a shot. Dismissed it as a backfire or firecracker. And forgot about it. And continued to excitedly watch JFK and Jackie during the few seconds they would be close to them. They only remembered the shots that occurred after they realized something seems to be terribly wrong.

Spot on. Frame 285 of the z film shows a guy still applauding enthusiastically  just before the head shot. Don't remember his name but he's a Normandy veteran and still hasn't realised something has gone wrong at that stage.

[Joe Elliott]

Spot on. Frame 285 of the z film shows a guy still applauding enthusiastically  just before the head shot. Don't remember his name but he's a Normandy veteran and still hasn't realised something has gone wrong at that stage.

Charles Brehm. He was a ranger on D-Day. Which means, I believe, he either went up the cliffs Pointe du Hoc. Or over the open beaches of Omaha Beach, as was depicted in the movie ?Saving Private Ryan?. Either way, a hell of a day.

But nobody seen in the Zapruder film is seen to react to shots being fired until z312, the headshot, except for the occupants of the limousine and the standing Secret Service agents in the follow up car.

People were just ignoring, and likely forgetting, the bangs they heard. They dismissed them as firecrackers or vehicle backfires. And continued applauding and concentrating on JFK and Jackie. It was a big deal to them and they were not in a mindset to get distracted.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Altgens was 25 yards from the muzzle? Using Don Roberdeau?s map, I find Altgens was at z255, just beyond where the limousine would reach at z313, 90 yards away. Not 25 yards.



Decibel levels go down by 6 every time the distance from the sound source is doubled.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Acoustic/isprob2.html



The following list:

http://www.metrogun.com/db_list.html

shows:

firecracker:  150 db
rifle:  163 db


This list does not specify the distance from the rifle or the firecracker or what kind of firecracker or rifle they are talking about. But it does give us a rough measure.


This implies that a firecracker at 20 yards away would be as loud as a rifle at 90 yards away. It is quite possible that Altgens did not know whether he was hearing a rifle from 90 yards away or a firecracker that was closer.





As far as why didn?t Altgens hear a shot until z255, I would say that most witnesses did hear the first shot, at around z153. Did not recognize it as a shot. Dismissed it as a backfire or firecracker. And forgot about it. And continued to excitedly watch JFK and Jackie during the few seconds they would be close to them. They only remembered the shots that occurred after they realized something seems to be terribly wrong.

Are you aware that a rifle at 163 dB is more than ten times as loud as a firecracker at 150 dB?

[John Anderson]

Charles Brehm. He was a ranger on D-Day. Which means, I believe, he either went up the cliffs Pointe du Hoc. Or over the open beaches of Omaha Beach, as was depicted in the movie ?Saving Private Ryan?. Either way, a hell of a day.

But nobody seen in the Zapruder film is seen to react to shots being fired until z312, the headshot, except for the occupants of the limousine and the standing Secret Service agents in the follow up car.

People were just ignoring, and likely forgetting, the bangs they heard. They dismissed them as firecrackers or vehicle backfires. And continued applauding and concentrating on JFK and Jackie. It was a big deal to them and they were not in a mindset to get distracted.

Absolutely.

[Joe Elliott]

Are you aware that a rifle at 163 dB is more than ten times as loud as a firecracker at 150 dB?

Not if the rifle is about 90 yards away and the firecracker is about 20 yards away. At equal distances, a 163 db sound source is about 20 times as powerful as a 150 db sound source. But at about 90 and 20 yards away, respectively, they would sound equally loud.

From the loudness alone, Altgens could not tell if he was hearing a rifle from 90 yards away or a firecracker that was 20 yards away. So, it is reasonable, as Mr. Altgens testified, that he assumed the loud noise he heard, while preparing for an important photograph (that was his job), was probably a firecracker.