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Author Topic: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?  (Read 47357 times)

Offline Robert Reeves

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 12:21:44 PM »
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If the WC believers are suggesting that the 1st shot was fired before Z186, then why are no SS agents looking back, even as late as Z207???? Surely they should have reacted to noise coming from behind at Z 160, or Z 150.. But no... they remain looking forward all the way to Z207.. very strange.

Kellerman WC testimony, below.

Quote
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.



In the Gif above, you can see Connally turning his head to his right, reacting to something, he then quickly snaps back towards his left,  Kellerman, in front of Connally, also moves towards his right, the Zapruder film catches his head in profile view. Kellerman's head is fully in profile at z-151. Kellerman's testimony appears to be consistent, re z-film.






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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 12:21:44 PM »


Offline Susan Wilde

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 12:34:36 PM »
The current swallower's of the 'lone nut' shot sequence of 166 (into tree), 223 ('magic' bullet), 313 was destroyed by the swallower's very own Warren Commission.

The Warren Report admitted that of the shots sequence that its 3 shots  (or more)  witnesses the commission knew of,

"a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced.
Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together"


(Warren Commission report, page 115)


One of the many key witnesses and/or key weapons experienced witnesses from a long list that can be solidly cited for anyone still in denial:

?I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second.?

(Military veteran, Pulitzer Prize winning  Dallas Times Herald  photographer, and Dealey Plaza close witness, Robert Jackson statements in his Warren Commission testimony, volume 2, page 160.

Jackson, as have also the  substantial majority  of his Dealey Plaza co-witnesses who heard at least three shots, has  always steadily maintained that of the shots he could hear,

"The second and third shots were closer together."

(Robert Jackson,  "Moment of Impact: Stories of the Pulitzer Prize Photographs" documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctNVyf9jdCM )


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2018, 04:08:46 PM »


Well, presuming Harold Norman was telling the truth, and did hear 3 shots in about 5 seconds,

 


That?s a big assumption. Skeptics don?t trust witnesses, at least witnesses unsupported by physical evidence. It is too easy for witnesses to be mistaken. Particularly on the question of the shots being spread over 5 seconds or 8.7 seconds.



. . . and combining that with CBS shooter experiment, NONE OF THEM were able to hit ANY targets on their 1st attempt,  even without boxes in the way, and foreknowledge of target track and red on black background target, ALL MISSED on their 1st attempt.. NOT A SINGLE HIT???



I never seen anything about the CBS 1967 shooters not being able to hit on their first attempt. Some got one out of three hits. Others two out of three. And one three out of three.

And it appears that Oswald got two out of three hits. And he was lucky with one, the neck shot, that missed the most likely target, the center of the head, by about 8 inches, which will probably cause a total miss, except he happened to miss downward. A miss by 8 inches to the left, or right, or high, would have been a total miss, at least of JFK.

Also, the shooters were trying to get the three shots off in under 6 seconds. Most likely, the three shots were from frames 153 to 312, which covers 8.7 seconds. Oswald had more time to aim then any of the 1967 CBS shooters.

Question:

Where is your source of this claim that the CBS shooters missed with all their shots on their first attempts?





Yet the WC wants us to believe Oswald without even  having the advantages the CBS shooters had, was able to hit 2 of 3 shots, even AS HE MOVED from sitting on the box, taking one shot standing up, and then somehow in about 3 more seconds got off 2 shots that BOTH hit, one of which was head shot.  ON HIS 1ST ATTEMPT!!!!



With 8.7 seconds, I don?t see why this is a problem.



The shots that 2 expert military snipers said were impossible  after seeing the 6th story SN, the boxes and the type rifle, the MC bolt action rifle.


Question:

What expert military sniper said this? Give us a link to this.





But maybe Betzner and Willis are simply wrong, and both of them are mistaking 2nd shot for the 1st shot they both heard, Betzner hearing it just after his photo at Z186, and Willis, right at when he snapped his photo at Z 205.



Don?t forget Mr. Altgens (CTers always do). All thought they took their picture at same time, or within a second, of the first shot. Either at z186, z205 or z255. Two of the three have to be wrong, at least.

Questions:

If at least two the three are wrong, why can?t all three have been wrong?

Does not Mr. Altgens show us that we cannot rely on witnesses claiming that their picture was taken just as the first shot was fired?

Don?t witnesses have a subconscious desire to believe that their photograph is extra special?





Even the JFK limo occupants, Jackie, Connally, Greer, Kellerman, seem oblivious until the head shot. They seem like people who have NOT actually heard 2 shots fired, but are only observing the EFFECT of those 2 shots, which is JFK slumping, and Gov Connally laying back.


Mr. And Mrs. Connally seem oblivious to any shots being fired before z312? Really? Really?

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2018, 04:08:46 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2018, 06:26:47 PM »
Kellerman WC testimony, below.



In the Gif above, you can see Connally turning his head to his right, reacting to something, he then quickly snaps back towards his left,  Kellerman, in front of Connally, also moves towards his right, the Zapruder film catches his head in profile view. Kellerman's head is fully in profile at z-151. Kellerman's testimony appears to be consistent, re z-film.







I don't believe Kellerman head was turned to profile. The "nose" could be part of Connally's neck shadow/







Kellerman's hairline, right forehead, and right eye in Z151 seem to me unchanged as the film unfolds.

The head turns of the Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy, the beginning of Rosemary Willis' slowing, and Phil Willis' testimony that the first shot occurred between his taking of Willis 04 (Z133) and Willis 05 (Z202) are indicators of a shot fired as the limousine approached the sign.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2018, 07:52:23 PM »
Do you believe the Zapruder Film can be used for timing or will you pick and choose which frame someone was shot  in?  I assume you accept it if you are using it for timing in my quote of you above.    To me it is clear that JFK was hit behind the sign.  He was waving before the sign to the crowd and as he emerges from the sign, he grabs his neck.   


Yes, there is no compelling reason to believe Kennedy was struck as he went behind the sign. Others believe it strongly though.



Some have contended that Kennedy's face shows a grimace or some "look" of pain in Z225, but his face seems about as natural as one can expect (I think he's no longer smiling because he's seen the Umbrella Man protestor).

Kennedy does react in the frames immediately following Z225:
  • The right arm diverts from being lowered towards the car-rail
  • The left arm begins to rise
  • The right hand reaches chin level by Z228 (Z227 being too blurred to use)
  • The President slumps forward between Z226 and Z228
This would be in accordance (though one can't say absolutely, of course) with the proposition of a neck transit wound that struck about Z223. According to the SBT, the same bullet then struck Connally; some maintain the bullet/debris that erupted from the right-front chest caused the Governor's jacket to pluck forward between Z223 and Z224.

We arguably see a rather tranquil look on Connally's face in Z223 through Z225 (the latter frame is the one where Kennedy seems to exhibit no distress). Z226ff and both men are reacting simultaneously. It's one opinion vs. another though.

Quote

Connally continues to look around and shows no evidence of being hit.    I will repost my analysis of the Zapruder film which was lost during the forum reset where all threads were lost!  Many years later, his wife who I assume was still sleeping with him, should have known where the shots came in at!  She really stretches it whenever she is in the media limelight!

Connally and JFK wer looking at the umbrella man located in front of the road sign at frame z-225.  At Z-226, JFK grabs his neck.   Obviously that bullet was a small calibre bullet that caused the President to slump - certainly not a rifle shot.   That is the best shot angle for anyone to take to minimize the risk of ever hitting Connally.   The umbrella man and the guy (known as the Cuban), waving his hand in the air beside him are very suspicious!   Only one guy with the umbrella and the other one arenot clapping, one with an open umbrella and the other with a hand fully raised in the air!  The road sign nicely obscured this event and Zapruder's filming of the event from his pedestal.




The "Cuban" is waving his raised hand.

 

TUM's umbrella rotating about its shaft is consistent with an umbrella being buffeted by the wind.

TUM is an odd occurrance in the film. People will try to explain the unexplained with something they believe logical. It was an assassination, so TUM was an assassin or signalman.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 10:23:33 PM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2018, 07:52:23 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2018, 09:20:33 PM »


The current swallower's of the 'lone nut' shot sequence of 166 (into tree), 223 ('magic' bullet), 313 was destroyed by the swallower's very own Warren Commission.

The Warren Report admitted that of the shots sequence that its 3 shots  (or more)  witnesses the commission knew of,

"a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced.
Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together"


(Warren Commission report, page 115)



Yes, and an equally strong majority of the witnesses said the limousine stopped or almost stopped. But we know from the Zapruder film that it only slowed form 13 mph to 8 mph.

A classic example as to why true skeptics don?t rely on an individual witness or even on the majority of opinions of many witnesses.



Naturally the witnesses could be wrong on this. A single rifle shot can make more than one noise. The ?Crack? of the supersonic bullet. The ?Thump? of the muzzle blast. The impact of a bullet on metal, glass or bone. And even echoes.

Several witnesses said all the shots occurred in pairs. A pair of shots almost on top of each other. Followed by another pair of shots almost on top of each other.

It is unlikely that two shots would occur at almost the same time, let alone two pairs of shots, even with multiple shooters.



Our best ?witness?, whose ?memory? never changes over the years, whose ?memory? is not influenced by what it hears from other people, shows:

** A probable shot at z153

**** strong camera jiggle at frames z158-z159
**** Kennedy, Connally and Rosemary Willis seemingly reacting to something by the z160?s

** Almost certainly a shot at z222

**** strong camera jiggle at frame 227
**** Connally?s coat movement at frame z224
**** Connally and Kennedy both jerking their right arm up at z226
**** The other reactions Connally and Kennedy make during the z220?s

** An absolutely certain shot at z312

**** strong camera jiggle at frame 318
**** Obvious explosive head wound that is first visible in frame z313

Offline Zeon Wasinsky

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 08:22:32 PM »



I never seen anything about the CBS 1967 shooters not being able to hit on their first attempt. Some got one out of three hits. Others two out of three. And one three out of three.

And it appears that Oswald got two out of three hits. And he was lucky with one, the neck shot, that missed the most likely target, the center of the head, by about 8 inches, which will probably cause a total miss, except he happened to miss downward. A miss by 8 inches to the left, or right, or high, would have been a total miss, at least of JFK.

Also, the shooters were trying to get the three shots off in under 6 seconds. Most likely, the three shots were from frames 153 to 312, which covers 8.7 seconds. Oswald had more time to aim then any of the 1967 CBS shooters.

Question:

Where is your source of this claim that the CBS shooters missed with all their shots on their first attempts?


                                                                                                         
http://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/bp1QdGQL/1967-cbs-special-a-cbs-news-inquiry-the-warren-report

                                                                                                       Zeon's conclusions:

1. Al Sherman, Maryland State Trooper                                                 = missed head shot
5.0 seconds - 2 hits in orange silouhette, 1 blue low
6.0 seconds - 2 hits, 1 blue high (1st 2 shots in 2.2 seconds)
NO TIME -- bolt jammed at third cartridge
5.2 seconds - 1 hit, two low
5.0 seconds - 1 hit, 2 upper left blue

2. Ron George, Maryland State Trooper                                                   = missed all 3
NO TIME -- bolt jammed after 2nd shot; 3rd fired very late
NO TIME -- 3rd bullet jammed
4.9 seconds - 2 hits, 1 blue upper right

3. John Concini, Maryland State Trooper                                                 = no comfirmed hits
6.3 seconds -- number of hits unreported
5.4 seconds -- 1 hit in silhouette, 2 blues "just low"

4. Howard Donahue, weapons engineer                                                   = missed all 3
NO TIME -- second bullet jammed
NO TIME -- jam after first shot
5.2 seconds - 3 hits in orange silhouette grouped in head area (best
target)

5. William Fitchett, sporting goods dealder                                              = missed all 3
6.5 seconds -- 3 borderline hits, low & left along silhouette border               
6.0 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 2 low blue
6.1 seconds -- number of hits unreported

6. Somerset Fitchett, sportsman                                                             = missed head shot
NO TIME -- jammed at 3rd bullet
5.9 seconds -- 2 hits, 1 wide left
5.5 seconds -- 2 hits, 1 low

7. John Bollendorf, ballistics technician                                                    = no hits in orange
6.8 seconds - 2 hits in silhouette, 1 blue low left
NO TIME -- jam after 2nd shot
NO TIME -- jam again
6.5 seconds -- 1 orange hit, 2 near misses blue upper left                     

8. Douglas Bazemore, ex-paratrooper (Viet vet)                                       = no hits
NO TIME -- stiff bolt action
NO TIME -- unable to work bolt fast enough
NO TIME -- just too stiff for him
NO TIME -- 2 shots in 5 seconds; 3 shots in 9 seconds; gives up

9. Carl Holden, H.P. White employee
NO TIME -- bolt jammed after 1st shot                                                        = no hits
NO TIME -- jammed again
5.4 seconds -- tight group of 3 hits in blue high right

10. Sid Price, H.P. White employee
5.9 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 1 blue, 1 nowhere (missed target completely)
4.3 seconds -- no hits reported
NO TIME -- jam after 2nd shot
4.1 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 2 complete misses (off blue)

11. Charles Hamby, H.P. White employee                                                       = no hits
NO TIME -- jammed
NO TIME -- jammed
6.5 seconds -- 2 blues close to silhouette, 1 completely missed target





« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 08:26:56 PM by Zeon Wasinsky »

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 08:22:32 PM »


Offline Zeon Wasinsky

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2018, 08:55:58 PM »
and the 2 military combat vet snipers:

Craig Roberts was a former Marine sniper who later wrote a book on the JFK assassination called ?Kill Zone.? Roberts visited the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository and instantly realized that Oswald could not have performed the shooting feat because he knew that he himself could not. And he was a professional.

Roberts interviewed Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, the former senior instructor at the Marines Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. Roberts asked Hathcock if he thought Oswald could have done what the Warren Commission said he did. Hathcock said no.
Hathcock reconstructed the assassination at Quantico: the angle, moving target, time limit etc. he told Roberts, ?I don?t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn?t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did.

http://www.plaintruth.com/the_plain_truth/2013/11/jfk-how-good-of-a-shot-was-oswald.html