The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?

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Offline Pat Speer

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 09:16:06 AM »
Pat, going with the collective statements from the witnesses, there were 3 shots. Do you agree that Kennedy is hit at Z313 and Z225, and those 2 frames (or very close), account for 2 of the 3 shots?

No, I don't agree. It's quite clear to me that Kennedy is hit before going behind the sign in the Zapruder film, and that Connally is hit circa Z-225. This is one of the many reasons I reject the single-bullet theory, which, in turn, is one of the many reasons I suspect there was more than one shooter firing upon Kennedy.

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 09:16:06 AM »

Online John Agee

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 02:01:52 PM »
No, I don't agree. It's quite clear to me that Kennedy is hit before going behind the sign in the Zapruder film, and that Connally is hit circa Z-225. This is one of the many reasons I reject the single-bullet theory, which, in turn, is one of the many reasons I suspect there was more than one shooter firing upon Kennedy.

Thanks for your reply Pat. It appears to me you think there were more than 3 shots, is that correct? How many shots do you think were fired?

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 02:01:52 PM »

Offline Allan Fritzke

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 05:34:27 PM »
No, I don't agree. It's quite clear to me that Kennedy is hit before going behind the sign in the Zapruder film, and that Connally is hit circa Z-225. This is one of the many reasons I reject the single-bullet theory, which, in turn, is one of the many reasons I suspect there was more than one shooter firing upon Kennedy.

Do you believe the Zapruder Film can be used for timing or will you pick and choose which frame someone was shot  in?  I assume you accept it if you are using it for timing in my quote of you above.    To me it is clear that JFK was hit behind the sign.  He was waving before the sign to the crowd and as he emerges from the sign, he grabs his neck.   Connally continues to look around and shows no evidence of being hit.    I will repost my analysis of the Zapruder film which was lost during the forum reset where all threads were lost!  Many years later, his wife who I assume was still sleeping with him, should have known where the shots came in at!  She really stretches it whenever she is in the media limelight!

Connally and JFK wer looking at the umbrella man located in front of the road sign at frame z-225.  At Z-226, JFK grabs his neck.   Obviously that bullet was a small calibre bullet that caused the President to slump - certainly not a rifle shot.   That is the best shot angle for anyone to take to minimize the risk of ever hitting Connally.   The umbrella man and the guy (known as the Cuban), waving his hand in the air beside him are very suspicious!   Only one guy with the umbrella and the other one arenot clapping, one with an open umbrella and the other with a hand fully raised in the air!  The road sign nicely obscured this event and Zapruder's filming of the event from his pedestal.    Connally eventually turns around by Z-275 to see what damage was inflicted to the President.   Kellerman has a good look as well.  Meanwhile driver Greer looks for the signal and the white marker in the grass to stage the final assault.  Obvious glass shatter/light reflection in my discussion below, cannot occur if Kellerman was still in his seat and not ducked out below dash level!

By the reflection of glass spray, from behind the windshield at Z-322 and again in Z-329,  you can easily determine the timing of the sequence of event which have occurred.    At 18 fps, the time can be readily calculated,  the first shot at Z-225, the next following at Z-322 gives you 5.5 seconds apart.  The final shot at Z-329 is a mere 0.5 seconds later.   You can't be using a bolt action sniper rifle to do this but need a handgun at close range!  If you believe that the Zapruder Film was real, (only camera man to get paid - $150,000 for his footage),   look at the frames.    I believe the car was travelling at about 5 mph when the 2 shots came in.  Just a rough guess when looking at the white spot movement in the grass- 4 feet movement between shots (1/2 a second) which is 5 mph.   Certainly speeded up once the assassin at the front of car rolls out of the way!  Again, all crowd at back side of car in distance, can't see this event.  Obviously, even the so called camera men in Z-345 don't even flinch as assassin rollsin behind.   All there films are misdeveloped!   Obviously, they were part of the assassination team as they have no reaction and no film!

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

It is pretty clear that the film was heavily tampered with.   Frame Z-313 and Z-314 were painted in.  Eventually by Z-320, his blurred head becomes visible again and fairly white looking - a lot of blurring added!   You can see the "red" blob magically reappears over Kennedy's head again at Z-331.  This of course coincides with the frontal headshot at Z-329.   So......a reintroduction of paint!   Obviously it was after this, that Jacqueline decides to flee the car as over 5 seconds has passed and no one even considered trying to protect the President!   So sad when no one can see the obvious!    The testimonies introduced years later are so full of holes, that obviously the whole event is a coverup!!  The first interviews are the only ones that make the most sense!  Obviously from the interview with Malcom Summers in 2002, he was not the assassin rolling into the grass after the shooting!



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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 05:34:27 PM »

Offline Zeon Wasinsky

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 09:44:04 AM »
Well, presuming Harold Norman was telling the truth, and did hear 3 shots in about 5 seconds, and combining that with CBS shooter experiment, NONE OF THEM were able to hit ANY targets on their 1st attempt,  even without boxes in the way, and foreknowledge of target track and red on black background target, ALL MISSED on their 1st attempt.. NOT A SINGLE HIT???

Yet the WC wants us to believe Oswald without even  having the advantages the CBS shooters had, was able to hit 2 of 3 shots, even AS HE MOVED from sitting on the box, taking one shot standing up, and then somehow in about 3 more seconds got off 2 shots that BOTH hit, one of which was head shot.  ON HIS 1ST ATTEMPT!!!!

The shots that 2 expert military snipers said were impossible  after seeing the 6th story SN, the boxes and the type rifle, the MC bolt action rifle.

But maybe Betzner and Willis are simply wrong, and both of them are mistaking 2nd shot for the 1st shot they both heard, Betzner hearing it just after his photo at Z186, and Willis, right at when he snapped his photo at Z 205.

So the WC knows the 5 seconds is out, and so they HAVE to spread the shots out at least to about 8 seconds to make it plausible. So they discount most of the ear witness, , like Norman and Lee Bowers, whom demonstrated 3 shots in less than 5 seconds, and in Bowers case, 2 shots within 1 sec apart.

The WC theory supporters will say Harold Norman is right, 3 shots fired, but wrong, 3 shots fired in less than 5 sec as Norman demonstrated. Betzner is wrong and simply missed hearing a shot prior to his Z186 photo. And Willis is wrong, and must be mistaking a shot heard also, prior to Z186 as a shot at Z223, even though Willis said the 1st shot he heard was nearly simultaneous with his photo taken at Z205.

Otherwise, 3 shots were fired between Z195 to Z313, of which the spacing between shot 1 and shot 2 is only 1 second apart, since Z223 is NOT the shot which caused Willis to snap his photo, so it HAS to be a shot BEFORE Z 223, but NOT BEFORE, Z186, because Betzner heard nothing until AFTER he took photo at Z186. Nor did Willis hear a shot before Z186 either, hearing only the 1st shot of 3 shots he heard, beginning at Z205.

And Charles Brehm. The WW2 combat veteran. Doesnt react until after Z313. Seriously??? A guy who said he heard all 3 shots, but he did NOT EVEN MOVE to protect his son, during the first 2 shots? A combat veteran would KNOW  gun shots RIGHT?? But Brehm does not react??? WTF??

And the woman walking across the green, TWO SHOTS ALREADY FIRED.. LOUD NOISES.. the woman is completely oblivous.. doesnt even react until the head shot at Z313... Same with the 3 men on the stairs. no reaction until the head shot.

Even the JFK limo occupants, Jackie, Connally, Greer, Kellerman, seem oblivious until the head shot. They seem like people who have NOT actually heard 2 shots fired, but are only observing the EFFECT of those 2 shots, which is JFK slumping, and Gov Connally laying back.

Even the SS agent Clint Hill who was keeping his eye on JFK , does not seem to be exactly sure what has happened, even though 2 shots have been fired by Z255. If the WC believers are suggesting that the 1st shot was fired before Z186, then why are no SS agents looking back, even as late as Z207???? Surely they should have reacted to noise coming from behind at Z 160, or Z 150.. But no... they remain looking forward all the way to Z207.. very strange.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:52:53 AM by Zeon Wasinsky »

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 09:44:04 AM »

Offline Robert Reeves

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 12:21:44 PM »
If the WC believers are suggesting that the 1st shot was fired before Z186, then why are no SS agents looking back, even as late as Z207???? Surely they should have reacted to noise coming from behind at Z 160, or Z 150.. But no... they remain looking forward all the way to Z207.. very strange.

Kellerman WC testimony, below.

Quote
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.



In the Gif above, you can see Connally turning his head to his right, reacting to something, he then quickly snaps back towards his left,  Kellerman, in front of Connally, also moves towards his right, the Zapruder film catches his head in profile view. Kellerman's head is fully in profile at z-151. Kellerman's testimony appears to be consistent, re z-film.






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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 12:21:44 PM »

Offline Susan Wilde

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 12:34:36 PM »
The current swallower's of the 'lone nut' shot sequence of 166 (into tree), 223 ('magic' bullet), 313 was destroyed by the swallower's very own Warren Commission.

The Warren Report admitted that of the shots sequence that its 3 shots  (or more)  witnesses the commission knew of,

"a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced.
Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together"


(Warren Commission report, page 115)


One of the many key witnesses and/or key weapons experienced witnesses from a long list that can be solidly cited for anyone still in denial:

?I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second.?

(Military veteran, Pulitzer Prize winning  Dallas Times Herald  photographer, and Dealey Plaza close witness, Robert Jackson statements in his Warren Commission testimony, volume 2, page 160.

Jackson, as have also the  substantial majority  of his Dealey Plaza co-witnesses who heard at least three shots, has  always steadily maintained that of the shots he could hear,

"The second and third shots were closer together."

(Robert Jackson,  "Moment of Impact: Stories of the Pulitzer Prize Photographs" documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctNVyf9jdCM )


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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 12:34:36 PM »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2018, 04:08:46 PM »


Well, presuming Harold Norman was telling the truth, and did hear 3 shots in about 5 seconds,

 


That?s a big assumption. Skeptics don?t trust witnesses, at least witnesses unsupported by physical evidence. It is too easy for witnesses to be mistaken. Particularly on the question of the shots being spread over 5 seconds or 8.7 seconds.



. . . and combining that with CBS shooter experiment, NONE OF THEM were able to hit ANY targets on their 1st attempt,  even without boxes in the way, and foreknowledge of target track and red on black background target, ALL MISSED on their 1st attempt.. NOT A SINGLE HIT???



I never seen anything about the CBS 1967 shooters not being able to hit on their first attempt. Some got one out of three hits. Others two out of three. And one three out of three.

And it appears that Oswald got two out of three hits. And he was lucky with one, the neck shot, that missed the most likely target, the center of the head, by about 8 inches, which will probably cause a total miss, except he happened to miss downward. A miss by 8 inches to the left, or right, or high, would have been a total miss, at least of JFK.

Also, the shooters were trying to get the three shots off in under 6 seconds. Most likely, the three shots were from frames 153 to 312, which covers 8.7 seconds. Oswald had more time to aim then any of the 1967 CBS shooters.

Question:

Where is your source of this claim that the CBS shooters missed with all their shots on their first attempts?





Yet the WC wants us to believe Oswald without even  having the advantages the CBS shooters had, was able to hit 2 of 3 shots, even AS HE MOVED from sitting on the box, taking one shot standing up, and then somehow in about 3 more seconds got off 2 shots that BOTH hit, one of which was head shot.  ON HIS 1ST ATTEMPT!!!!



With 8.7 seconds, I don?t see why this is a problem.



The shots that 2 expert military snipers said were impossible  after seeing the 6th story SN, the boxes and the type rifle, the MC bolt action rifle.


Question:

What expert military sniper said this? Give us a link to this.





But maybe Betzner and Willis are simply wrong, and both of them are mistaking 2nd shot for the 1st shot they both heard, Betzner hearing it just after his photo at Z186, and Willis, right at when he snapped his photo at Z 205.



Don?t forget Mr. Altgens (CTers always do). All thought they took their picture at same time, or within a second, of the first shot. Either at z186, z205 or z255. Two of the three have to be wrong, at least.

Questions:

If at least two the three are wrong, why can?t all three have been wrong?

Does not Mr. Altgens show us that we cannot rely on witnesses claiming that their picture was taken just as the first shot was fired?

Don?t witnesses have a subconscious desire to believe that their photograph is extra special?





Even the JFK limo occupants, Jackie, Connally, Greer, Kellerman, seem oblivious until the head shot. They seem like people who have NOT actually heard 2 shots fired, but are only observing the EFFECT of those 2 shots, which is JFK slumping, and Gov Connally laying back.


Mr. And Mrs. Connally seem oblivious to any shots being fired before z312? Really? Really?

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2018, 04:08:46 PM »

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2018, 06:26:47 PM »
Kellerman WC testimony, below.



In the Gif above, you can see Connally turning his head to his right, reacting to something, he then quickly snaps back towards his left,  Kellerman, in front of Connally, also moves towards his right, the Zapruder film catches his head in profile view. Kellerman's head is fully in profile at z-151. Kellerman's testimony appears to be consistent, re z-film.







I don't believe Kellerman head was turned to profile. The "nose" could be part of Connally's neck shadow/







Kellerman's hairline, right forehead, and right eye in Z151 seem to me unchanged as the film unfolds.

The head turns of the Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy, the beginning of Rosemary Willis' slowing, and Phil Willis' testimony that the first shot occurred between his taking of Willis 04 (Z133) and Willis 05 (Z202) are indicators of a shot fired as the limousine approached the sign.

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2018, 06:26:47 PM »

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2018, 07:52:23 PM »
Do you believe the Zapruder Film can be used for timing or will you pick and choose which frame someone was shot  in?  I assume you accept it if you are using it for timing in my quote of you above.    To me it is clear that JFK was hit behind the sign.  He was waving before the sign to the crowd and as he emerges from the sign, he grabs his neck.   


Yes, there is no compelling reason to believe Kennedy was struck as he went behind the sign. Others believe it strongly though.



Some have contended that Kennedy's face shows a grimace or some "look" of pain in Z225, but his face seems about as natural as one can expect (I think he's no longer smiling because he's seen the Umbrella Man protestor).

Kennedy does react in the frames immediately following Z225:
  • The right arm diverts from being lowered towards the car-rail
  • The left arm begins to rise
  • The right hand reaches chin level by Z228 (Z227 being too blurred to use)
  • The President slumps forward between Z226 and Z228
This would be in accordance (though one can't say absolutely, of course) with the proposition of a neck transit wound that struck about Z223. According to the SBT, the same bullet then struck Connally; some maintain the bullet/debris that erupted from the right-front chest caused the Governor's jacket to pluck forward between Z223 and Z224.

We arguably see a rather tranquil look on Connally's face in Z223 through Z225 (the latter frame is the one where Kennedy seems to exhibit no distress). Z226ff and both men are reacting simultaneously. It's one opinion vs. another though.

Quote

Connally continues to look around and shows no evidence of being hit.    I will repost my analysis of the Zapruder film which was lost during the forum reset where all threads were lost!  Many years later, his wife who I assume was still sleeping with him, should have known where the shots came in at!  She really stretches it whenever she is in the media limelight!

Connally and JFK wer looking at the umbrella man located in front of the road sign at frame z-225.  At Z-226, JFK grabs his neck.   Obviously that bullet was a small calibre bullet that caused the President to slump - certainly not a rifle shot.   That is the best shot angle for anyone to take to minimize the risk of ever hitting Connally.   The umbrella man and the guy (known as the Cuban), waving his hand in the air beside him are very suspicious!   Only one guy with the umbrella and the other one arenot clapping, one with an open umbrella and the other with a hand fully raised in the air!  The road sign nicely obscured this event and Zapruder's filming of the event from his pedestal.




The "Cuban" is waving his raised hand.

 

TUM's umbrella rotating about its shaft is consistent with an umbrella being buffeted by the wind.

TUM is an odd occurrance in the film. People will try to explain the unexplained with something they believe logical. It was an assassination, so TUM was an assassin or signalman.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 10:23:33 PM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2018, 07:52:23 PM »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2018, 09:20:33 PM »


The current swallower's of the 'lone nut' shot sequence of 166 (into tree), 223 ('magic' bullet), 313 was destroyed by the swallower's very own Warren Commission.

The Warren Report admitted that of the shots sequence that its 3 shots  (or more)  witnesses the commission knew of,

"a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced.
Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together"


(Warren Commission report, page 115)



Yes, and an equally strong majority of the witnesses said the limousine stopped or almost stopped. But we know from the Zapruder film that it only slowed form 13 mph to 8 mph.

A classic example as to why true skeptics don?t rely on an individual witness or even on the majority of opinions of many witnesses.



Naturally the witnesses could be wrong on this. A single rifle shot can make more than one noise. The ?Crack? of the supersonic bullet. The ?Thump? of the muzzle blast. The impact of a bullet on metal, glass or bone. And even echoes.

Several witnesses said all the shots occurred in pairs. A pair of shots almost on top of each other. Followed by another pair of shots almost on top of each other.

It is unlikely that two shots would occur at almost the same time, let alone two pairs of shots, even with multiple shooters.



Our best ?witness?, whose ?memory? never changes over the years, whose ?memory? is not influenced by what it hears from other people, shows:

** A probable shot at z153

**** strong camera jiggle at frames z158-z159
**** Kennedy, Connally and Rosemary Willis seemingly reacting to something by the z160?s

** Almost certainly a shot at z222

**** strong camera jiggle at frame 227
**** Connally?s coat movement at frame z224
**** Connally and Kennedy both jerking their right arm up at z226
**** The other reactions Connally and Kennedy make during the z220?s

** An absolutely certain shot at z312

**** strong camera jiggle at frame 318
**** Obvious explosive head wound that is first visible in frame z313

 

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