Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?  (Read 44954 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7322
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 09:29:15 PM »
Advertisement
Closest ear witnesses:

1,Harold Norman. 5th floor, right beneath SE corner 6th floor. Heard 3 shots, all 3 fired in a span of approx. 5 secs, given Normans interviews replicating the sequence with his "boom clack clack" description.

2.Amos Euins: Only approximately 30 yds away on the elm st corner looking up at the SE 6th story window. Saw a rifle and man holding it. Heard FOUR shots fired.

3.Majority of other earwitness heard 3 shots, 1st shot, then a few seconds, then 2 shots back to back, and in Lee Bowers example, the last 2 shots within about 1 sec apart, given his rapping his hand on the desk to replicate the timing (filmed interview with Mark Lane).

Conclusion: Low probability all shots were fired by an MC rifle, if these witness observation are correct.

Harold Norman. 5th floor, right beneath SE corner 6th floor. Heard 3 shots, all 3 fired in a span of approx. 5 secs, given Normans interviews replicating the sequence with his "boom clack clack" description.

Norman would have been the closest IF there had been any shots fired from the SE corner window on the sixth floor....

I would remind you that Norman said he heard the shells falling on the floor above his head and yet when he reproduced the sounds he said he heard he DID NOT reproduce the sound of the shells hitting the floor...

As you've pointed out Norman described what he heard as...  quote..."Boom ...Click...Clack... boom"...unquote.

If he had actually heard the sounds of the rifle being fired he would have heard ...

Boom ( cartridge being fired)----Click   (Bolt being opened)----Ping   (Spent shell falling on the floor) Clack----  ( Bolt being closed)--- Boom ( second cartridge being fired.)

Harold Norman was a damned liar.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 09:29:15 PM »


Offline Dillon Rankine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 10:10:06 PM »

Questions:

Why isn?t the great bulk of the witnesses saying the limousine stopped or almost stopped a major problem for the notion that we can rely on the witnesses if bulk of the witnesses support a certain observation?

Time perception changes during trauma. The witnesses looking at the limousine would have had a faulty perception of its movement speed during trauma. Attention is also crucial here, as only that to which attention is fixed is properly consolidated in memory.

Time perception on this scale (to horribly oversimplify) is controlled primarily by the flow of an excitatory monoamine neurotransmitter called dopamine, which is also involved in motivation, pleasure, reward, the felling of being correct, etc. This flow starts at the substantia nigra (involved in reward and movement), travels through other basal ganglia and into the anterior prefrontal cortex (involved in a variety of complex cognitive abilities, personality, planning, decision making, etc).

The faster these clock neurons (those dopaminergic cells invloved) fire, the more events we register. This is the brain splitting time up into packets of stimuli or events. If this circuit oscillates once every 1/10 of a second, then we encode one event every 1/10 of a second; which will form our conscious perception of time. If this speeds up, then we encode more data. We encode one event per oscillation.

This can be understood with some pathological examples. Schizophrenia results when there is too much dopamine in the brain, and schizophrenics tend to suffer from something called catatonia?the perception of time moving incredibly slow or even stopping entirely. This is because the circuit is firing at some speeds that it?s encoding every minute detail and forining it into one long conscious experience. Parkinson?s diseas occurs when there is too little dopamine, and is sometimes accompanied by the perception that everything is moving too fast?dopamine is tiring so slow that several clusters of events are encoded as one perception, therefore making time seem like it?s sped up.
(Carter, 2014, The Brain Book, p. 190)

During traumatic events, dopamine is not flowing so well; which means time feels to be slowing down and more details can be detected but these combine to form a slower conscious perception of what?s being observed. But attention to stimuli is still a crucial element here.   

Moreover, as the neuroscientist David Eagleman discovered, people judge the duration of stressful events to be longer after some time has passed.

Quote
If the great bulk of the witnesses are wrong about the speed of the limousine, why couldn?t they be wrong about the spacing of the shots? [/b]

As discussed above, this faulty perception is justified with the fact we know the limo slowed down and that their perception of time was slower due to a halt in dopamine during high stress and trauma. However keep in mind that witnesses probably weren?t interested in counting the number and spacing of gunshots, so they may still be wrong.

Quote
And I question that notion that ?Psychologists have long noted that our sense of time slows as a traumatic event unfolds?. Playing NFL football is pretty stressful. Rookies commonly find the game too fast for them. If they can stay in the league for a while, they may be able to calm down and find that the game is no longer too fast for them.

That?s stress, not trauma. Being in a crowd with loud gunshots echoing and being a rookie footballer and not even slightly comparable.

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10812
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 11:18:15 PM »
I said ?likely happened?. Not ?absolutely happened?. Nothing in this world is absolutely certain.

What makes it "likely" other than it's what you want to believe?

Quote
Absolutely. The best quality evidence is the ballistic evidence. The shells matching the gun he was found carrying.

The shells that the police didn't find at the scene were matched to the gun that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket a couple of hours later.

There, I fixed it for you.

Quote
And what the hell was he doing carrying a gun, let alone trying to shoot an officer with it.

Well, Joe, there's no actual evidence that he tried to shoot an officer in the theater.

Quote
And do you feel your remarks are so clever you have to give yourself a thumbs up?

No, I was giving you a thumbs up on admitting that we shouldn't just trust witnesses.

So you can't trust that:

- Oswald was in the 6th floor window
- Oswald owned a rifle
- Oswald brought a bag to work
- Oswald shot Tippit
- Oswald tried to shoot Walker

Shall I go on?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 11:18:15 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6513
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2018, 07:34:17 AM »
By "flurry" he meant two.   ::)

Only two people hit
Guess the 'flurry' shooter(s) should have used a Carcano

 ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 07:37:43 AM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Pat Speer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 09:16:06 AM »
Pat, going with the collective statements from the witnesses, there were 3 shots. Do you agree that Kennedy is hit at Z313 and Z225, and those 2 frames (or very close), account for 2 of the 3 shots?

No, I don't agree. It's quite clear to me that Kennedy is hit before going behind the sign in the Zapruder film, and that Connally is hit circa Z-225. This is one of the many reasons I reject the single-bullet theory, which, in turn, is one of the many reasons I suspect there was more than one shooter firing upon Kennedy.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 09:16:06 AM »


Offline John Agee

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 02:01:52 PM »
No, I don't agree. It's quite clear to me that Kennedy is hit before going behind the sign in the Zapruder film, and that Connally is hit circa Z-225. This is one of the many reasons I reject the single-bullet theory, which, in turn, is one of the many reasons I suspect there was more than one shooter firing upon Kennedy.

Thanks for your reply Pat. It appears to me you think there were more than 3 shots, is that correct? How many shots do you think were fired?

Offline Allan Fritzke

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 05:34:27 PM »
No, I don't agree. It's quite clear to me that Kennedy is hit before going behind the sign in the Zapruder film, and that Connally is hit circa Z-225. This is one of the many reasons I reject the single-bullet theory, which, in turn, is one of the many reasons I suspect there was more than one shooter firing upon Kennedy.

Do you believe the Zapruder Film can be used for timing or will you pick and choose which frame someone was shot  in?  I assume you accept it if you are using it for timing in my quote of you above.    To me it is clear that JFK was hit behind the sign.  He was waving before the sign to the crowd and as he emerges from the sign, he grabs his neck.   Connally continues to look around and shows no evidence of being hit.    I will repost my analysis of the Zapruder film which was lost during the forum reset where all threads were lost!  Many years later, his wife who I assume was still sleeping with him, should have known where the shots came in at!  She really stretches it whenever she is in the media limelight!

Connally and JFK wer looking at the umbrella man located in front of the road sign at frame z-225.  At Z-226, JFK grabs his neck.   Obviously that bullet was a small calibre bullet that caused the President to slump - certainly not a rifle shot.   That is the best shot angle for anyone to take to minimize the risk of ever hitting Connally.   The umbrella man and the guy (known as the Cuban), waving his hand in the air beside him are very suspicious!   Only one guy with the umbrella and the other one arenot clapping, one with an open umbrella and the other with a hand fully raised in the air!  The road sign nicely obscured this event and Zapruder's filming of the event from his pedestal.    Connally eventually turns around by Z-275 to see what damage was inflicted to the President.   Kellerman has a good look as well.  Meanwhile driver Greer looks for the signal and the white marker in the grass to stage the final assault.  Obvious glass shatter/light reflection in my discussion below, cannot occur if Kellerman was still in his seat and not ducked out below dash level!

By the reflection of glass spray, from behind the windshield at Z-322 and again in Z-329,  you can easily determine the timing of the sequence of event which have occurred.    At 18 fps, the time can be readily calculated,  the first shot at Z-225, the next following at Z-322 gives you 5.5 seconds apart.  The final shot at Z-329 is a mere 0.5 seconds later.   You can't be using a bolt action sniper rifle to do this but need a handgun at close range!  If you believe that the Zapruder Film was real, (only camera man to get paid - $150,000 for his footage),   look at the frames.    I believe the car was travelling at about 5 mph when the 2 shots came in.  Just a rough guess when looking at the white spot movement in the grass- 4 feet movement between shots (1/2 a second) which is 5 mph.   Certainly speeded up once the assassin at the front of car rolls out of the way!  Again, all crowd at back side of car in distance, can't see this event.  Obviously, even the so called camera men in Z-345 don't even flinch as assassin rollsin behind.   All there films are misdeveloped!   Obviously, they were part of the assassination team as they have no reaction and no film!

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

It is pretty clear that the film was heavily tampered with.   Frame Z-313 and Z-314 were painted in.  Eventually by Z-320, his blurred head becomes visible again and fairly white looking - a lot of blurring added!   You can see the "red" blob magically reappears over Kennedy's head again at Z-331.  This of course coincides with the frontal headshot at Z-329.   So......a reintroduction of paint!   Obviously it was after this, that Jacqueline decides to flee the car as over 5 seconds has passed and no one even considered trying to protect the President!   So sad when no one can see the obvious!    The testimonies introduced years later are so full of holes, that obviously the whole event is a coverup!!  The first interviews are the only ones that make the most sense!  Obviously from the interview with Malcom Summers in 2002, he was not the assassin rolling into the grass after the shooting!



JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 05:34:27 PM »


Offline Zeon Wasinsky

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 35
Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 09:44:04 AM »
Well, presuming Harold Norman was telling the truth, and did hear 3 shots in about 5 seconds, and combining that with CBS shooter experiment, NONE OF THEM were able to hit ANY targets on their 1st attempt,  even without boxes in the way, and foreknowledge of target track and red on black background target, ALL MISSED on their 1st attempt.. NOT A SINGLE HIT???

Yet the WC wants us to believe Oswald without even  having the advantages the CBS shooters had, was able to hit 2 of 3 shots, even AS HE MOVED from sitting on the box, taking one shot standing up, and then somehow in about 3 more seconds got off 2 shots that BOTH hit, one of which was head shot.  ON HIS 1ST ATTEMPT!!!!

The shots that 2 expert military snipers said were impossible  after seeing the 6th story SN, the boxes and the type rifle, the MC bolt action rifle.

But maybe Betzner and Willis are simply wrong, and both of them are mistaking 2nd shot for the 1st shot they both heard, Betzner hearing it just after his photo at Z186, and Willis, right at when he snapped his photo at Z 205.

So the WC knows the 5 seconds is out, and so they HAVE to spread the shots out at least to about 8 seconds to make it plausible. So they discount most of the ear witness, , like Norman and Lee Bowers, whom demonstrated 3 shots in less than 5 seconds, and in Bowers case, 2 shots within 1 sec apart.

The WC theory supporters will say Harold Norman is right, 3 shots fired, but wrong, 3 shots fired in less than 5 sec as Norman demonstrated. Betzner is wrong and simply missed hearing a shot prior to his Z186 photo. And Willis is wrong, and must be mistaking a shot heard also, prior to Z186 as a shot at Z223, even though Willis said the 1st shot he heard was nearly simultaneous with his photo taken at Z205.

Otherwise, 3 shots were fired between Z195 to Z313, of which the spacing between shot 1 and shot 2 is only 1 second apart, since Z223 is NOT the shot which caused Willis to snap his photo, so it HAS to be a shot BEFORE Z 223, but NOT BEFORE, Z186, because Betzner heard nothing until AFTER he took photo at Z186. Nor did Willis hear a shot before Z186 either, hearing only the 1st shot of 3 shots he heard, beginning at Z205.

And Charles Brehm. The WW2 combat veteran. Doesnt react until after Z313. Seriously??? A guy who said he heard all 3 shots, but he did NOT EVEN MOVE to protect his son, during the first 2 shots? A combat veteran would KNOW  gun shots RIGHT?? But Brehm does not react??? WTF??

And the woman walking across the green, TWO SHOTS ALREADY FIRED.. LOUD NOISES.. the woman is completely oblivous.. doesnt even react until the head shot at Z313... Same with the 3 men on the stairs. no reaction until the head shot.

Even the JFK limo occupants, Jackie, Connally, Greer, Kellerman, seem oblivious until the head shot. They seem like people who have NOT actually heard 2 shots fired, but are only observing the EFFECT of those 2 shots, which is JFK slumping, and Gov Connally laying back.

Even the SS agent Clint Hill who was keeping his eye on JFK , does not seem to be exactly sure what has happened, even though 2 shots have been fired by Z255. If the WC believers are suggesting that the 1st shot was fired before Z186, then why are no SS agents looking back, even as late as Z207???? Surely they should have reacted to noise coming from behind at Z 160, or Z 150.. But no... they remain looking forward all the way to Z207.. very strange.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:52:53 AM by Zeon Wasinsky »