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Author Topic: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?  (Read 14302 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2018, 07:30:37 PM »

how about getting a ?Crack-Thump? from just one shot. Would that count as getting two loud sounds, within a fraction of a second of each other? A single shot that could be misinterpreted as two separate shots, almost one top of each other? I think that could be done.

You're are right Mr Elloitt.....  I've actually experience the sound of three bangs from a single shot.....The bangs were very close spaced and might be confused with separate shots ....

I was down range from a hunter who fired a shot over my head ......I heard the bullet break the sound barrier over my head then the muzzle blast of the rifle, and then the bang of the bullet hitting  a nearby tree or something...

All three bangs were very closely spaced.....

So a person down range from a rifle might hear two closely spaced shots......  However in this case then Woodward would probably have hears six bangs ( if there were three shots )   However the sound of a bullet hitting flesh does not create a bang....( it sounds like a hard slap) ....so Woodward should have heard four bangs .....( and a couple of slaps)
but more closely spaced that could be accomplished with a cranky old bolt action rifle.....



You are assuming a witness will always have perfect recollections. But maybe they won?t. Maybe they might remember one ?Crack-Thump? pair as two shots and another as just one shot. It may be that they had the best recollection with the last ?Crack-Thump?, when they started to realize that something was amiss.

Also, Woodward was certainly not downrange of a hypothetical shot at z153. Only downrange of shots at z222 and z312.

Also, I understand some witnesses did remember all the shots occurring in pairs.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2018, 08:21:44 PM »
One thing I don't understand about those claiming Woodward had her moment with the Kennedys when they were perpendicular from her or even pass her, is why she would pass up the chance to observe them and have a moment before that.

 

It's like Woodward didn't quite notice the motorcycle further-back in Z098 until it reached here:

« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 07:33:36 PM by Jerry Organ »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #132 on: February 07, 2018, 03:11:53 PM »
FWIW, Mary Woodward's recollections do not remotely support a first shot miss circa 150-160, a second shot hit circa 224, and a third shot head shot at 313. 

(11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) : After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. This was followed rapidly by another shot.

(12-7-63 FBI report, 24H520) She stated she was watching President and Mrs. Kennedy closely, and all of her group cheered loudly as they went by. Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President Kennedy fall over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and started crawling over the back of the car.

(Interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) ?One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shot I did see the president being hit.  I literally saw his head explode.


Woodward saw Kennedy react to a shot fired after he passed her, and then saw his head explode when two more closely bunched shots were fired. Although she later made it sound as if she saw him hit by the second shot, and then hit in the head with the third shot, her earliest statements do not support this, and her continued claim the last two shots were on top of each other undermines this claim.
You are quite right.  Mary Woodward definitely recalled the last two shots closer together - the reverberation from the first (of the last two) had not died out before the last shot sounded.  If her recollection of the shot spacing is correct (and she is supported by dozens of others who reported the same spacing) she must have been wrong in her "hazy" impression that JFK was not hit by the first shot.   A possible explanation is that she was watching Jackie more closely immediately after the first shot.  She says that they both turned and looked around but only Jackie appears to have turned her head.  No one else said that JFK looked around.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #133 on: February 07, 2018, 03:34:48 PM »
FWIW, Mary Woodward's recollections do not remotely support a first shot miss circa 150-160, a second shot hit circa 224, and a third shot head shot at 313. 

(11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) : After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. This was followed rapidly by another shot.

(12-7-63 FBI report, 24H520) She stated she was watching President and Mrs. Kennedy closely, and all of her group cheered loudly as they went by. Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President Kennedy fall over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and started crawling over the back of the car.

(Interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) ?One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shot I did see the president being hit.  I literally saw his head explode.


Woodward saw Kennedy react to a shot fired after he passed her, and then saw his head explode when two more closely bunched shots were fired. Although she later made it sound as if she saw him hit by the second shot, and then hit in the head with the third shot, her earliest statements do not support this, and her continued claim the last two shots were on top of each other undermines this claim.


(Interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) ?One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shot I did see the president being hit.  I literally saw his head explode.

Maybe Woodward wasn?t as ditzy as she appeared. Dealey Plaza was referred to as an Echo Chamber. With the first shot the rifle was most likely retracted inside of the window so as to not be seen.


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #134 on: February 08, 2018, 12:06:10 AM »
A shot at z153 is based on:

** One of the three strongest camera jiggles before z318.

There's a jiggle at around Z293 that is just as strong.  Why do you disregard that one?

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** Rosemary Willis starting to slowdown and stare in the direction of the TSBD in the z160s.

What makes you think she's looking at the TSBD?

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Oh, yes, and Connally saying he heard a gunshot and he turned to his right but could not see the rifle. And then was shot a few seconds later. This indicates a shot just before the z160?s.

Connally said that the first shot he heard struck the president.

Offline John Anderson

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #135 on: February 08, 2018, 01:01:27 AM »
He assumed the first shot hit the President. He said he didn't actually see the President before he was hit himself.

Mrs Connally said the first shot hit the President.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #136 on: February 08, 2018, 02:24:30 AM »


There's a jiggle at around Z293 that is just as strong.  Why do you disregard that one?



No, the jiggle at z227, corresponding to z221-z222, had a peak of 2.6.

The jiggle at z291 had a peak of 2.1.
The jiggle at z296 had a peak of 1.7.



Of the seven strongest jiggles before z324:

** four of them correspond with the JFK starting to pass behind the sign. It is known that filming an object that disappears behind another object in the foreground causes camera jiggles similar to those caused by loud noises.

** One jiggle, strength 3.7, was at z318, which corresponds to z312-z313.
** One jiggle, strength 2.6, was at z227, which corresponds to z221-z222.
** One jiggle, strength 2.4, was at z158-z150, which corresponds to z152-z154.

Maybe it?s just another coincidence, but one would expect the camera jiggles, caused by a rifle report from the TSBD SN, to get stronger and stronger, as the rifle gets pointed more and more in Mr. Zapruder?s general direction, can gets louder and louder, with each shot.

**** Based on the HSCA study by Dr. William Hartmann, as listed in the book ?The JFK Myths? by Larry Sturdivan, page 305.



What makes you think she's looking at the TSBD?


Maybe she wasn?t. Maybe she had her eyes closed. But the Zapruder film shows her coming to a stop and staring in that direction for at least two seconds. She might not have been looking at the TSBD but her head remained pointed in that direction.




Connally said that the first shot he heard struck the president.



No. He said he heard the first shot. And felt the second shot go through his chest. He could not tell if the President was struck by the first shot or the second, because he never remembers seeing him. And if the SBT was true, it happened as a result of the second bullet, not the first.

Connally not seeing the President, at least until well after he was clearly wounded, is confirmed by the Zapruder film.

It was his wife who insisted that she saw the President get wounded, then saw her husband get wounded. The only problem is that the Zapruder film shows that she was looking at neither man until after both were clearly wounded.

At times, Connally would agree with his wife. If she saw the President gets shot first and then her husband gets shot second, then it must be true. It is never good to disagree with your wife when you don?t have to. But when talking of his own memory, he couldn?t say if the President was wounded by the first or second shot, because he didn?t see him during the shooting.


See an index to the Warren Commission witnesses:

https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/index.php

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #137 on: February 08, 2018, 04:20:04 PM »

No, the jiggle at z227, corresponding to z221-z222, had a peak of 2.6.

The jiggle at z291 had a peak of 2.1.
The jiggle at z296 had a peak of 1.7.



Of the seven strongest jiggles before z324:

** four of them correspond with the JFK starting to pass behind the sign. It is known that filming an object that disappears behind another object in the foreground causes camera jiggles similar to those caused by loud noises.
How is this "known"?   Do you have some data to support that?  In any event, according to Alvarez (p. 431 of his 1968 paper) the second biggest camera jiggle in the entire zfilm occurs at z194-95 when and JBC are fully in view.

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** One jiggle, strength 3.7, was at z318, which corresponds to z312-z313.
** One jiggle, strength 2.6, was at z227, which corresponds to z221-z222.
** One jiggle, strength 2.4, was at z158-z150, which corresponds to z152-z154.

Maybe it?s just another coincidence, but one would expect the camera jiggles, caused by a rifle report from the TSBD SN, to get stronger and stronger, as the rifle gets pointed more and more in Mr. Zapruder?s general direction, can gets louder and louder, with each shot.

The wave front from the muzzle blast would be almost spherical, so the sound of the muzzle blast would not be any different at different angles.  In any event, the change in horizontal angle of the gun to Zapruder was toward Zapruder and went from about 12 degrees to the car direction at z190 to about 3 degrees at z313.  The vertical angle changed about 7 degrees (upward, away from the ground) as the car proceeded down Elm (19 to 12 degrees).

Jiggle analysis sounds like a good theory, but it has never been tested. It is not science. It is what all untested theories are: speculation.  As Prof. Feynman said, "It does not make any difference how smart you are, who made the guess, or what his name is - if it disagrees with experiment it is wrong. " There has never been a scientific study showing that one can consistently and reliably identify shot times from "jiggle analysis".  None.   Camera jiggles occur all through the zfilm.  They were not all caused by shot sounds.

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Maybe she wasn?t. Maybe she had her eyes closed. But the Zapruder film shows her coming to a stop and staring in that direction for at least two seconds. She might not have been looking at the TSBD but her head remained pointed in that direction.
Whatever she was looking at up to z202 (it appears to me that it was the motorcade, possibly the president's car, possibly the QM) she turns her head sharply backward from about z202-204:

                               




« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 04:37:30 PM by Andrew Mason »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?
« Reply #138 on: February 08, 2018, 06:46:28 PM »
Maybe it?s just another coincidence, but one would expect the camera jiggles, caused by a rifle report from the TSBD SN, to get stronger and stronger, as the rifle gets pointed more and more in Mr. Zapruder?s general direction, can gets louder and louder, with each shot.

Ok, so I'll ask you again.  Why are you ignoring your 2.1 jiggle at 291 and calling your 2.4 jiggle at 158 a shot?  Just because you're pre-assuming the location of the source of the shots?  Did Zapruder just coincidentally jiggle at Z291?  That's quite some cherry-picking.


Quote
Maybe she wasn?t. Maybe she had her eyes closed. But the Zapruder film shows her coming to a stop and staring in that direction for at least two seconds. She might not have been looking at the TSBD but her head remained pointed in that direction.

Hang on.  Please demonstrate that her head is even pointed toward the TSBD.

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But when talking of his own memory, he couldn?t say if the President was wounded by the first or second shot, because he didn?t see him during the shooting.


 

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