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Author Topic: Autopsy proves SBT impossible  (Read 15978 times)

Offline Steve Taylor

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #240 on: May 24, 2018, 06:13:36 PM »

Altgens is the only witness who was actually asked about it and also the general belief by the bulk of the eyewitnesses that was there was not a shot after the head shot.

Brehm shouldn't be in this list of witnesses. He originally told the press there was but two shots. Later changes to three with the second shot still being the head shot.

Hill's testimony is hard to rectify with anything. Basically she stated the first two shots account for all the wounds followed by three to four more shots.

Moorman mentions just two shots and then describes Jackie climbing on the car. She then adds a total number of three to four shots. Moorman then goes from stating three to four shots to stating there was two to three shots which is unusual for an eyewitness to reduce the number.


Brehm---------- originally describes just two shots. Later he states a third shot.

Charles Brehm
Dallas Times Herald 11/22/63

"The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. "The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just slumped. Then on the second shot he seemed to fall back." Brehm seemed to think the shots came from in front of or beside the President. He explained the President did not slump forward as if he would have after being shot from the rear. The book depository building stands in the rear of the President's location at the time of the shooting."




Brehm later adds a shot in a radio interview Brehm, a former U.S. soldier, gave to NBC:

“I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him. There is some discussion now as to whether there was one or two shots that hit him, but the first shot rang out and I was positive when I saw the look on his face and saw him grab his chest and saw the reaction of his wife that he had been shot and just at that time, which was probably a few seconds later the second shot rang out and he just absolutely went down into the seat of the car.

There was a third shot that went and by that time I had grabbed my little five year old boy who was with me and ran away from the scene of the thing. But the only thing that I did witness and something I’m sorry I did witness very honestly was the look on his face when that shot hit, and the look again on him and his wife’s face when the shots started to ring out. And it was very obviously that he was hit.

The first two shots that were heard. The first one hit the president—there was no doubt whatsoever–because his face winced and he grabbed himself and he slumped down. I do believe without any doubt that the second one hit him because he had an immediate reaction with that second shot. I do know there was a third shot but as I said by that time I had grabbed my boy and started to go. I did not witness Governor Connally’s being hit.”


=================================


Hill---------  First two shots cause all the wounds. Three or four shots after the car accelerates.

Sheriffs Affidavit 11/22

Just as the President looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackie’s lap and she fell across his back ad said "My God he has been shot." There was instant pause between the first two shots an the motorcade seemingly halted for an instant and three or four more shots rang out and the motorcade sped away

================================


Moorman--------- two shots account for all the wounds. Moorman changes from three or four shots to two or three shots. First two shots is all she describes causing all the wounds.

Sheriffs affidavit 11/22

Jean Hill and I were standing on the grass by the park on Elm Street between the underpass and the corner of Elm & Houston. I had a Polaroid Camera [sic] with me and was intending to take pictures of President Kennedy and the motorcade. As the motorcade started toward me I took two pictures. As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all. After the pictures I took were developed, the Picture [sic] of President Kennedy showed him slumped over. When the pictures were developed, they came out real light. These pictures have been turned over to Officers [sic] investigating this incident.

FBI Interview 11/23

MARY ANN MOORMAN, 2832 Ripplewood, telephone number DA 1-9390, advises that she and a friend named JEAN HILL, 9402 Bluff Creek, Dallas, Texas, watched the President KENNEDY parade from the grassy area in the parkway between Main and Elm Streets, and at approximately 12:25 p.mp, as well as she recalls, she took a photograph of the procession as it proceeded toward her. She took this photgraph with a polaroid camera, and the photograph showed the police motorcycle escort preceding the President's car. In the background of this photograph she said the Texas School Book Depository Building was visible.

She took a second photograph of the President as his automobile passed her, and just as she snapped the the picture, she heard what she at first thought was a firecracker and very shortly thereafter heard another similar sound which she later determined to have been gunfire. She knows that she heard two shots and possibly a third shot. She recalls seeing the president "sort of jump" and start to slump sideways in the seat, and seems to recall President KENNEDY's wife scream, "My God, he's been shot"!




++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




There are a few more witnesses who state there was a shot after the head shot. All the wounds to both men are still accounted for with the first two shots, either by describing the second shot as the head shot or the action of the car after the headshot.


Marilyn Willis ------------ Second shot a Red Halo

Marilyn Willis (FBI Report on 6-19-64) "...when the motorcade passed on Elm Street in front of where she was standing she heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker or a backfire. A few seconds later she stated she heard another report and saw the top of President Kennedy's head "blow off and ringed by a red halo." She stated she believes she heard another shot following this."

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James Jarman-----------  Two shots and then the car accelerates

11/23

He said that he heard a shot and then saw President KENNEDY
move his right hand up to his head. After an elapse of three
or four seconds, he heard a second shot and then the vehicle
bearing President KENNEDY speeded up and he was unable to
observe any more about the presidential vehicle.
He said a
third shot was heard- by-him closely following the second shot
possibly within/second or two afterward. He said these shots
sounded to him to be too loud to have been anywhere outside the
TSBD building.

The following is a GIF of 321-346.  Beginning at about 321, JFK's head accelerates forward.  Clint Hill stated that the last shot he heard was just as he was reaching the limo at about 339.  (At 313 he had just dismounted the Queen Mary and was only beginning to run).  Until 330, Connally can be seen still holding his hat in his right hand in the line of fire.  From 330-337 his hand is driven very rapidly down under the front of the seat.  Jackie, who until just prior to 343 has remained relatively cool is now beginning to flee from the car. Kellerman said a flurry of shots came into the car.  UPI's first wire reports described 3 bursts of gunfire.  Shortly thereafter, UPI quoted an SS officer as claiming it came from an automatic weapon.


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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #240 on: May 24, 2018, 06:13:36 PM »


Offline Bernd Werner

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #241 on: May 24, 2018, 10:55:16 PM »
No. Where is the evidence of a shot from the GK?

The evidence are the 33 people (according to John McAdams) testifying that they heard shots from the grassy knoll. According to your interpretation of witness testimony this means, that there was a shooter at the grassy knoll!

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Experience and clinical trials show that witnesses are generally accurate in observing salient details of an event.
A salient detail is a detail that most witnesses of the event recalled.  See: Loftus

And the Warren Commission surely used multiple choice tests for their interrogations. You can't be serious, can you?

BTW, the book you quote actually supports my point of view on witness testimony, as it focusses on the fallability of such testimony. Quoting a part of the book and neglecting the rest is nothing else than quote mining!

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Experts who provide opinions that do not fit with well corroborated witness accounts are invariably wrong. I can give you many examples.

No, it is indeed vice versa! Witness testimony is actually quite unreliable, I think the Wikipedia article on eyewitness testimony  is a good starting point for your own research on that topic.

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Not really. He figured it out. He knew it was not the first shot and he knew that it was not the last shot. And he recalled hearing exactly three shots.

Really?

I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn’t say definitely on which one.

I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

That's not knowing to me, that's guessing!

Futhermore: Tague testified, that there was a fresh bullet mark on the curb.

About 12 to 15 feet right on the top of round of the curb, was the mark that very definitely was fresh, and I would say it was a mark of a bullet.

This contradicts your hypothesis, that all bullets hit Kennedy and/or Connally. Why do you exclude this part of his testimony?

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The problems occur when you fail to consider all the remaining possibilities or when you exclude something as impossible when it isn't.

Well, there is no evidence for your hypothesis of three shots that hit, but there is evidence for a shot that didn't hit. So your hypothesis seems quite impossible.

Who has excluded the impossible?

The Warren Commission (yes, they indeed got something right!).

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I'm still waiting for a LNer to demonstrate the trajectory and body positions of JFK and Connally that makes it work.


And I am still waiting for a conspiracy buff to demonstrate that the single bullet is not possible.

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Where is your evidence that this was even possible?


In contrast to conspiracy buffs, the "lone nutters" did experiments and proved, that the single bullet indeed was possible.

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I can't prove it wasn't possible because that would be proving a negative. It's up to you to at least show that it was possible, so you can exclude the impossible, otherwise, you're stuck with improbable.

That's a very lousy attempt of shifting the burden of proof and actually wrong! You cannot prove, that something doesn't exist, but you can prove, that something didn't happen.

Example: I can prove easily, that the Las Vegas Knights didn't win the Stanley Cup in 2017, because they joined the NHL for the season 2017/18.

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I could post frames of the fireball blasting out of JFK's right temple and the top right side of his head but I'm sure you have some obfuscation for it, so I won't bother.

It is new to me, that a fireball bursted out of Kennedy's head, I always thought it were brain tissue and blood.

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So why did you think the magic bullet crashed thru bones and came out looking so pristine?

Which bones were hit by the bullet?

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Go ahead and draw the red line on Z312 yourself. What angle do you get when you just clear the windshield, providing it did? My graphics weren't intended to be a photogrammetric analysis but don't let me stop you:

1) Using Google Maps, go to a satellite view of the overpass and measure the distance from the overpass to JFK's head at Z312.
2) Find out the height of the overpass at the point where the trajectory angle lines up with JFK's head orientation at Z312.
3) Assume the limo was tipped down 5 degrees on its path down Elm.
4) Use some geometry to see if the bullet cleared the windshield before striking JFK's head. (IMO the knoll shot was the frangible bullet)
5) Exclude the impossible and see what's left.

As I am well aware of the geometrical problems involved, I won't do that. Your analysis is doomed to fail, because your approach is flawed. A line drawn on a two dimensional picture does not reproduce the angle in the three dimensional environment.

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I'm merely proposing that if the head shot came from the front, to have cleared the windshield, then it must have came from the overpass. Simple as that. Never claimed that's how it happened, only that it was possible. See the difference?

OT, but nevertheless totally impossible.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 11:19:49 PM by Bernd Werner »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #242 on: May 24, 2018, 11:47:02 PM »
In contrast to conspiracy buffs, the "lone nutters" did experiments and proved, that the single bullet indeed was possible.

Only if you make a lot of assumptions about contradictory accounts of the wound locations, the exact positions of the limo occupants, and the location of the shooter.

But lots of things are possible.  Can they show that it actually happened?  And so what if it did?  How does that get you to the identity of the shooter?

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #242 on: May 24, 2018, 11:47:02 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #243 on: May 25, 2018, 12:02:21 AM »
The evidence are the 33 people (according to John McAdams) testifying that they heard shots from the grassy knoll. According to your interpretation of witness testimony this means, that there was a shooter at the grassy knoll!
No it doesn't.  The quality of a witness observation is depends on the ability of a human to make the observation.  Detecting gunshot sounds and the relative spacing is rather easy to do.  Determining where the shots came from is much more difficult. Direction is determined by the brain sensing a time difference between the sound wave front reaching each ear.  The sense of direction can be fooled by reflected sound. Dealey Plaza had many surfaces that reflected sound.  So I would expect that some people would be confused as to the direction of the sound source.  That confusion is reflected in the distribution of witness evidence. 

Having said that, many more witnesses said the sound source was around the TSBD. According the the analysis of earwitness accounts by DM Green for the HSCA (at 8 HSCA 140), the distribution of 178 witnesses was:

TSBD: 49  (27.5%)
GK:  21  (11.8%)
Other: 30  (16.9%)
Unknown: 78   (43.8%)

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BTW, the book you quote actually supports my point of view on witness testimony, as it focusses on the fallability of such testimony. Quoting a part of the book and neglecting the rest is nothing else than quote mining!
Eyewitness identification evidence is problematic. Unless the witness recognized the person at the time of the event, eyewitness identification is really an opinion of a witness that the person being seen in a photograph or lineup is the same person that they saw earlier.

But, fact observation is fundamentally different.  As the studies referred to by Loftus show, where a detail is recalled by most eyewitnesses, accuracy is quite high - around 98%. This makes perfect sense. Where you have many witnesses independently saying the same thing, it boggles the mind to suggest that they all independently made up the same fact!

Any given witness can be wrong.  My point is that you do not have to know anything about and individual's reliability as a witness to determine that if 22+ people independently reported seeing a simple observable fact and 0 reported a different fact, you are making a big mistake if you find in favour of the fact that 0 people observed.






Offline Bernd Werner

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #244 on: May 25, 2018, 12:08:32 AM »
Only if you make a lot of assumptions about contradictory accounts of the wound locations, the exact positions of the limo occupants, and the location of the shooter.

1. There are various photographs and x-rays, that can be used to find out the wound locations.

2. The position of the "limo occupants" can be established by photos and videos.

3. The location of the shooter can be established by aligning the entrance and exit wounds of JFk.

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But lots of things are possible.  Can they show that it actually happened?

And how about you? Can you prove, that the single bullet didn't happen?

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And so what if it did?  How does that get you to the identity of the shooter?

Quite easy, if you know the position of the shooter, you can search this place for further evidence and link it to the shooter.

No it doesn't.  The quality of a witness observation is depends on the ability of a human to make the observation.

But that contradicts your previous argument. Just to remind you, you stated:

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An individual witness can be wrong. But if multiple independent witnesses report consistent observations, on what basis can that evidence be disregarded?

It seems, that you are trying to move the goalpost.

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Detecting gunshot sounds and the relative spacing is rather easy to do.
 

Obviously not, as many witnesses (including Tague!) testified, that they thought the first shot was a firecracker or  a backfire of one of the vehicles!

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Determining where the shots came from is much more difficult. Direction is determined by the brain sensing a time difference between the sound wave front reaching each ear.  The sense of direction can be fooled by reflected sound. Dealey Plaza had many surfaces that reflected sound.  So I would expect that some people would be confused as to the direction of the sound source. That confusion is reflected in the distribution of witness evidence. 

While this is surely true (see Zapruders testimony [I do not classify him as an "knoll witness" because of this fact]), can you prove this for every witness?

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Having said that, many more witnesses said the sound source was around the TSBD.


This is of course true, but it is no contradiction to a shooter at the grassy knoll! The common argument is, that a further shooter was present at the grassy knoll and this proves a conspiracy (which is actually not true).

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But, fact observation is fundamentally different.  As the studies referred to by Loftus show, where a detail is recalled by most eyewitnesses, accuracy is quite high - around 98%.


What part of her book are you referring to? Is it table 3.1? If so, did you know, that this table represents the results of a multiple choice test? Now tell me, which investigator uses multiple choice tests for his interrogations?

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Where you have many witnesses independently saying the same thing, it boggles the mind to suggest that they all independently made up the same fact!

I never claimed, that the witnesses made up this fact! You are just putting words in my mouth.You futhermore fell prey to the "argumentum ad populum fallacy". Just because a lot of people said, that something occured, doesn't necessarily mean, that something occured. You have to confirm this accounts by actual facts.

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Any given witness can be wrong.  My point is that you do not have to know anything about and individual's reliability as a witness to determine that if 22+ people independently reported seeing a simple observable fact and 0 reported a different fact, you are making a big mistake if you find in favour of the fact that 0 people observed.

Well, to the best of my knowledge no witness ever observed, that a bullet fragmented, therefore it didn't happen (according to YOUR logic).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 12:36:09 AM by Bernd Werner »

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #244 on: May 25, 2018, 12:08:32 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #245 on: May 25, 2018, 12:39:02 AM »
1. There are various photographs and x-rays, that can be used to find out the wound locations.

You would think so, wouldn't you?  Unfortunately, different panels examining the same materials couldn't even agree on where the entry wound in the head was located.

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2. The position of the "limo occupants" can be established by photos and videos.

Somewhat.  Unless the areas of interest are not visible in the photos and videos.  And there's the problem of interpolating 3D position from a 2D image.

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3. The location of the shooter can be established by aligning the entrance and exit wounds of JFk.

Assuming you can figure out where those are, IF they are entries or exits, and didn't deflect much in transit.  Then you can only get direction, not distance.  And there's even a margin of error on direction.

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And how about you? Can you prove, that the single bullet didn't happen?

Did I miss your proof that it did happen?  I don't know if it happened or not.  Or even how that helps us determine who did the shooting.

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Quite easy, if you know the position of the shooter, you can search this place for further evidence and link it to the shooter.

Be my guest.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2018, 01:41:46 AM »
Nice try, but several witnesses reported the second and third shots as a "bam-bam" and stressed they were "very close together" (Lee Bowers, et al). If Oswald or any other human was operating the "humanitarian rifle", they would have to cycle the bolt after the second shot and reacquire the target AND fire accurately. Can anyone honestly say that there's such a thing as two shots "very close together" from a bolt action rifle? I think not...

I started this thread knowing there would be many who would concoct scenarios to fit the discredited SBT. But the extent to which folks twist the evidence reminds me of trying to have an intelligent discussion with a Trump supporter. I will state it again because I'm an ineffective communicator. The single bullet theory is impossible because no shots exited from the front of the president's body. Several witnesses saw the president before the SBT could be fabricated. They report the throat wound as one of entrance. End of ballgame for SBT, just from a different direction!

I read that HSCA testing showed the rifle could be fired twice in 1.67 seconds. The catch is that the second one of the two shots missed; only the first could be aimed precisely. I would contend that even just pointing at the target still leaves open the possibility that the shooter could have scored the headshot due to pure dumb luck.

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Re: Autopsy proves SBT impossible
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2018, 01:41:46 AM »