Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Accounting of bullets, ballistics  (Read 1115 times)

Offline James Dahl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« on: April 06, 2018, 07:48:07 PM »
The sniper nest on the 6th floor of the book depository had three spent shell casings and three bullets were fired from the Carcano rifle.

Witnesses state that just after Kennedy's limousine turned onto Elm Street there was a shot, but it missed the car and struck the pavement instead.  Various theories as to why the shot (that would have been the best possible shot opportunity) missed the car have been proposed.  One is that tracking Kennedy with the sniper scope, the shooter fired but the shot had become obstructed by the traffic signal, which deflected the bullet angle slightly and left a hole in the traffic signal.

The second shot, moments later, struck Kennedy in the neck, travelled through to Connally, and ended up lodged in his thigh where it remains in his body today.

The third shot also missed and struck the car, where it got stuck and was later recovered with slight compression deformations, and placed for unknown reasons on the stretcher in Parkland hospital.

All three shots from the Carcano Rifle have been therefore accounted for, and none of them are the shot that killed Kennedy.

There was a fourth shot, either before or after the third Carcano bullet was fired.  This bullet was different, it was an expanding bullet, not a full metal jacketed bullet like the Carcano, as it left a conical expanding wound and blew out Kennedy's skull.  This shot also came from a different firing angle.  Several theories have been proposed as to the origin of this bullet.

The first "Mortal Error" theory, posited by Howard Donahue, is that in the confusion of the shooting, the Secret Service car accidentally shot Kennedy with a hollow point bullet from an AR-15 rifle.

The laser ballistic analysis in 1998 posited a different theory that the fourth shot could have come from the 2nd floor of the Dal-Tex building.

Elsie Dorman thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.

Comparison of the wound to Kennedy, the head shot came from a lower angle than the 6th floor of the Book Depository (which is why Donahue concluded it was accidental from the secret service car) and from a slightly different angle, again indicating the secret service car, but due to the position of the secret service in the follow car, any shot from the follow car would have damaged the secret service car, especially as the guy with the AR-15 was seated at the time.

The lower and more southerly angle could indicate either the Dal-Tex 2nd floor, or Elsie Dorman's recollection of the Court Records building, perhaps one of the lower floors.

Offline Matt Grantham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 07:58:54 PM »
 The only part I am going to respond to is that Tague said he heard a shot before the shot that hit him So if we are to give his report ant credence there were at least two shots that missed

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 07:58:54 PM »

Offline James Dahl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 08:05:07 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The only part I am going to respond to is that Tague said he heard a shot before the shot that hit him So if we are to give his report ant credence there were at least two shots that missed

Tague was wounded slightly by concrete chips from the first shot.  He heard the first shot, the first shot hit the concrete pavement, and bits of pavement struck him in the face.  Tague was not struck by bullets or bullet fragments, but by a bit of concrete.

Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 962
Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 08:30:00 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yeah bullets are supersonic, but bits of concrete aren't, so it is theoretically possible that he heard the shot before the concrete hit him in the face

       We also need to consider if: (1) shots hit the curb/man hole cover on the South side of Elm St, and (2) the curbing close to where Teague was standing. The section of curb that was removed/jack hammered for alleged testing was Not on Elm St.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 08:30:00 PM »

Offline James Dahl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 08:38:00 PM »
How far can concrete shot by a bullet spray out with enough force to wound somebody?  Has anybody looked into that?  How far away could Teague be from the first bullet impact?

Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 962
Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 08:47:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How far can concrete shot by a bullet spray out with enough force to wound somebody?  Has anybody looked into that?  How far away could Teague be from the first bullet impact?

          It comes down to how many Total shots you believe were fired. The way DPD Detectives were all over that Man Hole Cover area on the South side of Elm St only minutes after the Kill Shot, and then went Back to that same area with the DPD CSI Crew after law enforcement cleared Dealey Plaza a couple hours later, tells me that there were Bullet(s) which struck within this area. 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 08:47:51 PM »

Offline James Dahl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2018, 09:42:30 PM »
Let's see if we can tie shots to bullets.

Shot 1 bullet: ??? never recovered?  Embedded in pavement?  Bounced away?
Shot 2 bullet: Fragment is CE-842 recovered from Connally's wrist, possible additional fragments CE-567 and CE-569, fibers possibly connect these fragments to Kennedy's shirt collar
Shot 3 bullet: possibly CE-399?

Shot 4 bullet: CE-843 fragments

Offline Jack Trojan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Thomas Arthur Vallee
Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 12:53:57 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The sniper nest on the 6th floor of the book depository had three spent shell casings and three bullets were fired from the Carcano rifle.

Unless this was a conspiracy and the MC and hulls were planted. Otherwise, how come there were no prints on the MC and ammo? Oswald dissembled/reassembled it, didn't he?

Quote
Witnesses state that just after Kennedy's limousine turned onto Elm Street there was a shot, but it missed the car and struck the pavement instead.  Various theories as to why the shot (that would have been the best possible shot opportunity) missed the car have been proposed.  One is that tracking Kennedy with the sniper scope, the shooter fired but the shot had become obstructed by the traffic signal, which deflected the bullet angle slightly and left a hole in the traffic signal.

The 1st shot was supposedly later than "just after turning onto Elm". But what is odd is that the turn onto Elm segment of the Z-film was cut out, and not by Zapruder. WTF??? Isn't this the point where Oswald would have surely taken his 1st shot? The limo apparently curbed-out as it navigated that ridiculous turn onto Elm. How could Oswald have missed that shot, then wait another 8 seconds to take the next Magic Bullet shot? And who would/could do all that shooting while looking thru a misaligned scope?

Quote
The second shot, moments later, struck Kennedy in the neck, travelled through to Connally, and ended up lodged in his thigh where it remains in his body today.

No, the Magic Bullet fell out of Connally's thigh and inexplicably ended up on the wrong gurney in immaculate, swimming pool condition. Supposedly there were fragments from the bullet that ended up in Connally's body, especially his wrist, which could have been used to settle all this.  But he took his secrets to the grave with him. No hard feelings towards the conspirators, I guess, otherwise, why wouldn't Connally have wanted to put all the conspiracy theories to rest once and for all!

Quote
The third shot also missed and struck the car, where it got stuck and was later recovered with slight compression deformations, and placed for unknown reasons on the stretcher in Parkland hospital.

There was definitely a shot thru the windshield. Funny how the SS "cleaned" the limo of any/all crucial evidence then had it restored to pre-coup condition.

Quote
All three shots from the Carcano Rifle have been therefore accounted for, and none of them are the shot that killed Kennedy.

Agreed, because the MC wasn't even fired. There might have been some token shots from the Mauser if any shots actually came from the TSBD. They probably were hoping a sharpshooter with the Mauser could pull it off before the "Turkey-shoot Point" because they sure as hell weren't going to use a Carcano with a wonky scope to assassinate the POTUS.

Quote
There was a fourth shot, either before or after the third Carcano bullet was fired.  This bullet was different, it was an expanding bullet, not a full metal jacketed bullet like the Carcano, as it left a conical expanding wound and blew out Kennedy's skull.  This shot also came from a different firing angle.  Several theories have been proposed as to the origin of this bullet.

Yes. The head shot that blew out the side of JFK's head was from a frangible bullet, likely from the knoll. I think that Greer slowed the limo down to the prime turkey shoot position and several bullets may have hit their marks from various directions. If you time it just right, then it sounds like 1 shot. It seems like an awful lot of damage was done by a single full metal jacketed bullet.

Quote
The first "Mortal Error" theory, posited by Howard Donahue, is that in the confusion of the shooting, the Secret Service car accidentally shot Kennedy with a hollow point bullet from an AR-15 rifle.

Pls. The SS stink to high heaven, but they would not be relied upon to assassinate the POTUS. They were in cahoots with the FBI and Greer slowed the limo down at the Turkey-shoot Point so everyone could have a go. Umbrella man signaled it, after all. ;)

Quote
The laser ballistic analysis in 1998 posited a different theory that the fourth shot could have come from the 2nd floor of the Dal-Tex building.

We need to establish a precise timeline of the shots so we can study the geometry to calc trajectory angles, etc.

Quote
Elsie Dorman thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.

Comparison of the wound to Kennedy, the head shot came from a lower angle than the 6th floor of the Book Depository (which is why Donahue concluded it was accidental from the secret service car) and from a slightly different angle, again indicating the secret service car, but due to the position of the secret service in the follow car, any shot from the follow car would have damaged the secret service car, especially as the guy with the AR-15 was seated at the time.

Since the MB didn't kill JFK, the "turkey-shoot" shot was needed. Who knows where all the shots came from if they all came at once? This also moves the head around in odd ways as your head is blown off.

Quote
The lower and more southerly angle could indicate either the Dal-Tex 2nd floor, or Elsie Dorman's recollection of the Court Records building, perhaps one of the lower floors.

We must map out an accurate CGI model of the scene. Then position the motorcade anywhere on the route and measure the angles of various trajectories and debate whether they make sense relative to the LN narrative.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 01:00:30 AM by Jack Trojan »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Accounting of bullets, ballistics
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 12:53:57 AM »

 

Mobile View