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Author Topic: A Fair Lineup?  (Read 5234 times)

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2018, 04:33:24 PM »
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The burden to prove what exactly in this context?  That the lineup was "fair"?  As I said, it is unclear what you even mean by that.  It's a subjective claim.  And some witnesses did not ID Oswald in the lineup.  That would appear to mean it was fair enough for them to exercise their discretion to not identify him.  Oswald's problem was not the lineup but fact that he was the guilty party and could be identified by witnesses.  But when you run out of arguments, as a last resort fall back on the position that others have to disprove your silly claims to your subjective satisfaction.

A fair lineup includes people similar to you in height, weight, appearance, and type of dress. This didn't happen for LHO. 

A fair lineup means that the eyewitness views the lineup first and then sign a form saying they picked out the suspect. This didn't happen for LHO in some cases.

A fair lineup prevents the eyewitness from viewing the suspect before they attend the lineup. This didn't happen for LHO in some cases.

A fair lineup means no coaching by the authorities. This didn't happen for LHO in some cases.

A fair lineup includes legal representation for the suspect to make sure that none of the above things take place. This didn't happen for LHO.

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2018, 04:33:24 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2018, 11:44:54 PM »
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You are full of it as numerous officers who participated in the lineups said that they were asked questions including their place of occupation. This is from my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series.

Quote on

Remember the part about NOT being aware of being asked questions.

Mr. BALL - Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he ask you any questions?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What did he ask you?

Mr. ABLES - As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my occupation was and where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL - And where what?

Mr. ABLES - Where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL - Did he ask your name?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL - What did you answer?

Mr. ABLES - When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't recall what I told him when he asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL - Did you tell him you were a jail clerk?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Gave him a fictitious occupation?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

Ah, but LHO would NOT be able to give a fictitious occupation I’m sure.  So when LHO would be asked what his name was, where he was from, and what his occupation was he would have to tell the TRUTH!  Imagine as soon as he said “Lee Harvey Oswald, New Orleans, and I work in the Texas School Book Depository” what would happen!  Bingo!  We got our man!

Why were any questions being asked of the people in the showup when LHO was at a decided disadvantage since his mug and info was all over the news?  Conveniently the detective who asked these questions was forgotten so we can’t ask him this ourselves!


Mr. BALL - Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir; I don't.

Before any Warren Commission (WC) defenders jump to the claim LHO was NOT asked questions perhaps they should read this first.

Mr. BALL - Did Oswald say anything?

Mr. ABLES - Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him questions.

Mr. BALL - Did he answer the questions?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

So you can see Walt Brown wasn’t far off when he said in his book “Treachery In Dallas” that a BLIND MAN/WOMAN could have picked LHO out based on the answers to these questions.

Ables would participate in the second lineup that took place at about 6:30 p.m. and he would be dressed the same.  The same people would be involved as well.  Again, he did NOT remember who asked the questions.


Mr. BALL - Do you remember who asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES - I don't remember his name. No, sir.

He would take part in a third lineup “about 7:55 or 8:00 p.m.”, but this time it would be him, LHO and two prisoners.  He would say he did NOT think any questions were asked at this lineup. He would give his general description as follows:

Mr. BALL - Can you tell me your height?

Mr. ABLES - About 5'9".

Mr. BALL - What is your weight?

Mr. ABLES - Around 165 or something.

Mr. BALL - And your hair?

Mr. ABLES - Dark.

Mr. BALL - Eyes?

Mr. ABLES - Brown.

Mr. BALL - Complexion?

Mr. ABLES - Ruddy.

He was the same height as LHO, but weighed a good bit more. LHO had brown hair, NOT dark.

Another cop that would take part was named W.E. Perry.  Here is what he had to say about this.


Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or----

Mr. BALL. First one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. 6:30.

Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall.

We see he had NEVER been asked to do this before.  Why now? Who knows for sure but this comment by him made them GO OFF RECORD for awhile.  When they came back they asked this.

Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever head of officers taking part in showups before in your department?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself?

Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part?

Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I don't recall.

So we see Perry had never taken part in a lineup with cops or had seen it before. He was asked who asked him to do it.

Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part in the first showup?

Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you?

Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau.

Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

What is really odd about this was that Fritz was in charge of Robbery-Homicide and Perry was in VICE!

Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the vice squad?

Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-huh, no. Never heard of it done.

So why was Fritz ordering someone NOT in his division to do this when they had NEVER been asked/ordered to do it before? This is interesting too.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third floor of the homicide office.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who else was there?

Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the office was----

Mr. BALL. Anything said there?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?

Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat.

Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup?

Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To whom?

Mr. PERRY. To Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand?

Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand.

Sports coat? Did LHO have a sports coat on? I don’t think so why was he wearing one? Why was he handcuffed to LHO? Where did they expect him to go? What questions did they ask him?

Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any questions?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.

Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?

Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation.

Mr. BALL. What else?

Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him?

Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they were, but they weren't----

Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or true address?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Do you imagine LHO could have done this? I don’t think so, thus, it can be said again his answers would have sunk him alone in terms of him being ID’d.  “Lee Harvey Oswald, New Orleans, and I work at the TSBD where the president was shot.”

He would also take part in the second lineup around 6:30 p.m. and he would remember the detective asking questions then. Of course the man asking the questions the first time would be forgotten too.


Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?

Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?

Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?

Mr. PERRY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?

Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

He would be asked to give his general description for the record.

Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please?

Mr. PERRY. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. PERRY. About 150.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. PERRY. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. PERRY. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess.

We see he was taller than LHO and weighed more than LHO.  His eyes were blue and for LHO this is hard to say since so many documents state different eye colors for him. A third cop was present in the lineups with LHO, Ables and Perry.  His name was Richard Clark.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of the police department, did you?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. CLARK. Two.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were?

Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup?

Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald.

So again it was Capt. Fritz who asked him to be involved.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who went with you?

Mr. CLARK. My partner.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. CLARK. W.E. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there?

Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there?

Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people?

Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody.

His partner Perry said a bunch of folks were there too including Texas Rangers. Imagine how intimidating this would be for the witnesses to see before they went to make an ID.  Here is what he said about what he wore for the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it was a red vest, went on down to the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest?

Mr. CLARK. At homicide.

Mr. BALL. You didn't own a----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt.

Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Took off your tie?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on?

Mr. CLARK. Brown.

Mr. BALL. With belt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Red vest? Why in the world would he wear a red vest? Did anyone ever describe the man they saw in the TSBD or at the Tippit murder scene wearing a red vest? I don’t think so.

We also run into trouble with this question.


Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any questions?

Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us?

Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions.

Oh really? I thought Perry and Ables said he did.   Why would Clark say he didn’t? This troubled the WC too as they quickly moved to fix it.

Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any questions? Ask your name and address and occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, in the showup?

Mr. BALL. In the showup.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious name?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Again, it can’t be stressed enough, LHO would NOT have been allowed to make up “fictitious” info so his answers would make him stand out...

Quote off


Apparently you're not bright enough to understand the difference between being asked where you work versus being asked what kind of work you do.

Once again, Walt Brown and you are both full of it, exactly as I originally stated.

Get a clue.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 11:47:24 PM by Bill Brown »

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2018, 12:10:55 AM »
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Apparently you're not bright enough to understand the difference between being asked where you work versus being asked what kind of work you do.

Once again, Walt Brown and you are both full of it, exactly as I originally stated.

Get a clue.

Once again you are playing word games. Only a devout LNer (i.e. someone who ignores or never learns the evidence and instead relies on bluster, opinion based on nothing, speculation, assumptions, ad homs, and personal insults) could think that they didn't make LHO mention that he worked at the TSBD after they spent all that effort on claiming it was the source of the shots.

I have a clue that is why I don't believe anything you say without supporting evidence.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 12:12:32 AM by Rob Caprio »

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2018, 10:18:19 AM »
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Once again you are playing word games. Only a devout LNer (i.e. someone who ignores or never learns the evidence and instead relies on bluster, opinion based on nothing, speculation, assumptions, ad homs, and personal insults) could think that they didn't make LHO mention that he worked at the TSBD after they spent all that effort on claiming it was the source of the shots.

I have a clue that is why I don't believe anything you say without supporting evidence.

Only a devout kooky conspiracy theorist could think that they made Oswald mention where he worked, despite there being no evidence of it whatsoever.

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2018, 02:18:57 AM »
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Only a devout kooky conspiracy theorist could think that they made Oswald mention where he worked, despite there being no evidence of it whatsoever.

So what did they ask LHO then? Come on know-it-all, tell me.

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2018, 02:18:57 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2018, 04:38:51 AM »
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You are full of it as numerous officers who participated in the lineups said that they were asked questions including their place of occupation. This is from my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series.

Quote on

Remember the part about NOT being aware of being asked questions.

Mr. BALL - Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he ask you any questions?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What did he ask you?

Mr. ABLES - As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my occupation was and where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL - And where what?

Mr. ABLES - Where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL - Did he ask your name?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL - What did you answer?

Mr. ABLES - When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't recall what I told him when he asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL - Did you tell him you were a jail clerk?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Gave him a fictitious occupation?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

Ah, but LHO would NOT be able to give a fictitious occupation I’m sure.  So when LHO would be asked what his name was, where he was from, and what his occupation was he would have to tell the TRUTH!  Imagine as soon as he said “Lee Harvey Oswald, New Orleans, and I work in the Texas School Book Depository” what would happen!  Bingo!  We got our man!

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So what did they ask LHO then? Come on know-it-all, tell me.

Whatsa matter?  You can't cite a single bit of evidence showing that Oswald was asked, during the lineups, to state where he worked?

Then why are you claiming that Oswald would have told anyone (during the lineups) that he worked in the Depository building?

Like I said, Walt Brown is full of it and so are you.

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2018, 05:15:53 PM »
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Whatsa matter?  You can't cite a single bit of evidence showing that Oswald was asked, during the lineups, to state where he worked?

Then why are you claiming that Oswald would have told anyone (during the lineups) that he worked in the Depository building?

Like I said, Walt Brown is full of it and so are you.

So you obviously cannot say what he was asked, but you still feel comfortable stating that he wouldn't have been asked where he worked. How does that work? So they would have been okay with "order filler?" LOL. Sure.

They did everything possible to make LHO appear guilty, but Brown wants you to think that they wouldn't make him state his place of work. Sure.

Bill Brown is the one "full of it."

Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2018, 07:40:20 PM »
Mr. BALL - Were you given any instructions when you went into the showup room?
Mr. ABLES - No, sir; none whatsoever.

In a fair show-up all would need to give fictious answers to the questions. Ables wasn't instructed to do so. If Ables recieved no instructions we can't assume Oswald did. There is reasonable doubt about the fairness of the show-up.

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2018, 07:40:20 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2018, 09:59:19 AM »
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So you obviously cannot say what he was asked, but you still feel comfortable stating that he wouldn't have been asked where he worked. How does that work? So they would have been okay with "order filler?" LOL. Sure.

They did everything possible to make LHO appear guilty, but Brown wants you to think that they wouldn't make him state his place of work. Sure.

Bill Brown is the one "full of it."

And yet another post without showing a single piece of evidence supporting the claim that Oswald, during the lineups, was asked to give his place of employment.

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2018, 05:59:10 PM »
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And yet another post without showing a single piece of evidence supporting the claim that Oswald, during the lineups, was asked to give his place of employment.

And yet, you have posted again without showing that he wasn't asked where he worked. You want us to believe that he just said "order filler." Sure.

It is hilarious that you mention evidence since you have posted NONE as usual.

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2018, 05:59:10 PM »