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Author Topic: A Fair Lineup?  (Read 1951 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 01:32:07 AM »
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Walt Brown is full of xxxx.

So it would seem.

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 01:32:07 AM »


Online Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 02:22:39 AM »
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Well, their rebuttals should soon start flowing... ;-)

Their rebuttals never include the evidence. Perhaps Jim Hess' confession applies to most of the LNers?

“I disqualify myself because I don't know the evidence well enough to debate it.” – Jim Hess


Online Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2018, 02:23:43 AM »
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Walt Brown is full of xxxx.

Well your biased opinion is duly noted.

Online Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2018, 02:27:14 AM »
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Your focus on the "fairness" of the lineup discounts the ability of witnesses to say that he was not the guy or at least they wouldn't make an identification if they were not sure.  It's typical CTer nonsense to concern yourself completely with details like whether Oswald was asked to state his place of occupation and discount random, ordinary people could refuse to identify him if they were not sure.  Which some did.  Oswald was stone cold guilty.  So no lineup would be "fair" to him if by that you mean witnesses who recognized him shouldn't have identified him even if they were sure he was the person they saw.

The part the LNers continually ignore is that the BURDEN is on the prosecution. The Bill of Rights guarantee the accused a fair due process. LHO never received this.

Which LNer would like to be treated the way that LHO was?

Online Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2018, 02:29:20 AM »
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So it would seem.

Why? Be specific.

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2018, 02:29:20 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 09:36:19 AM »
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Well, somebody named Brown is...

Walt Brown, like any moron who believes that Oswald, while in the lineups, was asked to state where he worked, is full of it.

Prove that I'm full of it, if you can.  Can you prove that Oswald was asked to state where he worked?

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 02:44:15 PM »
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The part the LNers continually ignore is that the BURDEN is on the prosecution. The Bill of Rights guarantee the accused a fair due process. LHO never received this.

Which LNer would like to be treated the way that LHO was?

The burden to prove what exactly in this context?  That the lineup was "fair"?  As I said, it is unclear what you even mean by that.  It's a subjective claim.  And some witnesses did not ID Oswald in the lineup.  That would appear to mean it was fair enough for them to exercise their discretion to not identify him.  Oswald's problem was not the lineup but fact that he was the guilty party and could be identified by witnesses.  But when you run out of arguments, as a last resort fall back on the position that others have to disprove your silly claims to your subjective satisfaction. 

Online Mark Valenti

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2018, 03:50:19 PM »
LHO didn't do himself any favors, according to William Whaley:

"He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what he thought about them. They knew what they were doing and they were trying to railroad him and he wanted his lawyer."
(2H 261)

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2018, 03:50:19 PM »


Online Mark Valenti

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2018, 04:01:11 PM »
Helen Markham was given sedatives before she was taken into the line-up viewing room. At that time she picked out LHO but later, her testimony gave the impression she wasn't sure.
Ball: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?
Mrs. Markham: Yes, sir.
Ball: Did you recognize anyone in the line-up?
Mrs. Markham: No, sir.
Ball: You did not? Did you see anybody—I have asked you that question before—did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. Markham: From their face, no.
Ball: Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. Markham: I didn't know nobody . . . I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Ball: No one of the four?
Mrs. Markham: No one of them.
Ball: No one of all four?
Mrs. Markham: No, sir.
Ball: Was there a number two man in there?
Mrs. Markham: Number two is the one I picked. . . . Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman. . . . I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me. . . . (3H 310-311)


More from Whaley, and why the identification of LHO was questionable: ". . . me and this other taxi-driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and directly they brought in six men, young teen-agers, and they were all handcuffed together .. . you could have picked [Oswald] out without identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teenagers. . . . He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what he thought about them . . . they were trying to railroad him and he wanted his lawyer. . . . Anybody who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for that. . . . (2H 260-261)


The three men who appeared in the line-ups with Oswald on Friday were all Dallas police employees—W. E. Perry and Richard Clark, detectives, and Don Ables, jail clerk. Each of those men testified that he was asked his name and occupation and that he gave fictitious answers.

Oswald also responded when he was asked his name and occupation—information which was saturating all the news media—but his replies were factual, not fictitious. (7H 234, 237-239, 241-242) The same question-and-answer routine was followed at the Saturday line-up, according to one of the participants. (7H 245-246)

The Warren Commission saw nothing wrong with the composition or management of the line-ups. It was "satisfied that the line-ups were conducted fairly." (WR 169)

Ted Callaway claimed to have been able to identify LHO but when Domingo Benavides testified, he said that Callaway asked him "Which way did he go?" meaning the killer of JD.

How could Callaway have seen the killer when he had no idea which way the killer ran?

Warren Commission lawyers never questioned Callaway on the discrepancy.

Several witnesses identified LHO from a photograph -- a single photograph instead of from among a bunch of photographs. That's an approach to investigation that sets up a fait accompli.



Online Rob Caprio

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Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2018, 04:20:55 PM »
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Walt Brown, like any moron who believes that Oswald, while in the lineups, was asked to state where he worked, is full of it.

Prove that I'm full of it, if you can.  Can you prove that Oswald was asked to state where he worked?

You are full of it as numerous officers who participated in the lineups said that they were asked questions including their place of occupation. This is from my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series.

Quote on

Remember the part about NOT being aware of being asked questions.

Mr. BALL - Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he ask you any questions?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What did he ask you?

Mr. ABLES - As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my occupation was and where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL - And where what?

Mr. ABLES - Where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL - Did he ask your name?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL - What did you answer?

Mr. ABLES - When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't recall what I told him when he asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL - Did you tell him you were a jail clerk?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Gave him a fictitious occupation?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

Ah, but LHO would NOT be able to give a fictitious occupation I’m sure.  So when LHO would be asked what his name was, where he was from, and what his occupation was he would have to tell the TRUTH!  Imagine as soon as he said “Lee Harvey Oswald, New Orleans, and I work in the Texas School Book Depository” what would happen!  Bingo!  We got our man!

Why were any questions being asked of the people in the showup when LHO was at a decided disadvantage since his mug and info was all over the news?  Conveniently the detective who asked these questions was forgotten so we can’t ask him this ourselves!


Mr. BALL - Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES - No, sir; I don't.

Before any Warren Commission (WC) defenders jump to the claim LHO was NOT asked questions perhaps they should read this first.

Mr. BALL - Did Oswald say anything?

Mr. ABLES - Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him questions.

Mr. BALL - Did he answer the questions?

Mr. ABLES - Yes, sir.

So you can see Walt Brown wasn’t far off when he said in his book “Treachery In Dallas” that a BLIND MAN/WOMAN could have picked LHO out based on the answers to these questions.

Ables would participate in the second lineup that took place at about 6:30 p.m. and he would be dressed the same.  The same people would be involved as well.  Again, he did NOT remember who asked the questions.


Mr. BALL - Do you remember who asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES - I don't remember his name. No, sir.

He would take part in a third lineup “about 7:55 or 8:00 p.m.”, but this time it would be him, LHO and two prisoners.  He would say he did NOT think any questions were asked at this lineup. He would give his general description as follows:

Mr. BALL - Can you tell me your height?

Mr. ABLES - About 5'9".

Mr. BALL - What is your weight?

Mr. ABLES - Around 165 or something.

Mr. BALL - And your hair?

Mr. ABLES - Dark.

Mr. BALL - Eyes?

Mr. ABLES - Brown.

Mr. BALL - Complexion?

Mr. ABLES - Ruddy.

He was the same height as LHO, but weighed a good bit more. LHO had brown hair, NOT dark.

Another cop that would take part was named W.E. Perry.  Here is what he had to say about this.


Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or----

Mr. BALL. First one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. 6:30.

Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall.

We see he had NEVER been asked to do this before.  Why now? Who knows for sure but this comment by him made them GO OFF RECORD for awhile.  When they came back they asked this.

Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever head of officers taking part in showups before in your department?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself?

Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part?

Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I don't recall.

So we see Perry had never taken part in a lineup with cops or had seen it before. He was asked who asked him to do it.

Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part in the first showup?

Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you?

Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau.

Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

What is really odd about this was that Fritz was in charge of Robbery-Homicide and Perry was in VICE!

Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the vice squad?

Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-huh, no. Never heard of it done.

So why was Fritz ordering someone NOT in his division to do this when they had NEVER been asked/ordered to do it before? This is interesting too.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third floor of the homicide office.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who else was there?

Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the office was----

Mr. BALL. Anything said there?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?

Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat.

Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup?

Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To whom?

Mr. PERRY. To Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand?

Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand.

Sports coat? Did LHO have a sports coat on? I don’t think so why was he wearing one? Why was he handcuffed to LHO? Where did they expect him to go? What questions did they ask him?

Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any questions?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.

Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?

Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation.

Mr. BALL. What else?

Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him?

Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they were, but they weren't----

Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or true address?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Do you imagine LHO could have done this? I don’t think so, thus, it can be said again his answers would have sunk him alone in terms of him being ID’d.  “Lee Harvey Oswald, New Orleans, and I work at the TSBD where the president was shot.”

He would also take part in the second lineup around 6:30 p.m. and he would remember the detective asking questions then. Of course the man asking the questions the first time would be forgotten too.


Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?

Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?

Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?

Mr. PERRY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?

Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

He would be asked to give his general description for the record.

Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please?

Mr. PERRY. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. PERRY. About 150.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. PERRY. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. PERRY. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess.

We see he was taller than LHO and weighed more than LHO.  His eyes were blue and for LHO this is hard to say since so many documents state different eye colors for him. A third cop was present in the lineups with LHO, Ables and Perry.  His name was Richard Clark.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of the police department, did you?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. CLARK. Two.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were?

Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup?

Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald.

So again it was Capt. Fritz who asked him to be involved.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who went with you?

Mr. CLARK. My partner.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. CLARK. W.E. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there?

Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there?

Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people?

Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody.

His partner Perry said a bunch of folks were there too including Texas Rangers. Imagine how intimidating this would be for the witnesses to see before they went to make an ID.  Here is what he said about what he wore for the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it was a red vest, went on down to the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest?

Mr. CLARK. At homicide.

Mr. BALL. You didn't own a----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt.

Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Took off your tie?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on?

Mr. CLARK. Brown.

Mr. BALL. With belt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Red vest? Why in the world would he wear a red vest? Did anyone ever describe the man they saw in the TSBD or at the Tippit murder scene wearing a red vest? I don’t think so.

We also run into trouble with this question.


Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any questions?

Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us?

Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions.

Oh really? I thought Perry and Ables said he did.   Why would Clark say he didn’t? This troubled the WC too as they quickly moved to fix it.

Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any questions? Ask your name and address and occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, in the showup?

Mr. BALL. In the showup.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious name?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Again, it can’t be stressed enough, LHO would NOT have been allowed to make up “fictitious” info so his answers would make him stand out...

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JFK Assassination Forum

Re: A Fair Lineup?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2018, 04:20:55 PM »