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Author Topic: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?  (Read 17069 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2020, 06:53:37 PM »
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Another observation; I have a large pile of evidence that Hickey did it but I have seen no evidence that the CIA had anything to do with it, not that I have been looking for it.

Then you believe his shot went through the Queen Mary followup-car's windshield. ::)



From the Pat Speer site.
 


From the Pat Speer site.
Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2020, 06:53:37 PM »


Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2020, 09:11:10 PM »
Then you believe his shot went through the Queen Mary followup-car's windshield. 

No, I believe it went over it

Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Hickey and the other agent were sitting on top of the backrest with their feet on the seat. Hickey stood up, the car decelerated, he lost his balance, and he naturally responded, reflex reaction, and grabbed onto the grip and trigger thus squeezing off a round.

Clint Hill was halfway to JFK's limo and the agent in the back with Hickey was looking to his right at the time of the shot.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2020, 01:11:16 AM »
Then you believe his shot went through the Queen Mary followup-car's windshield. 

No, I believe it went over it

The analysis by Pat Speer showing otherwise is flawed? Or the Bronson film is a forgery?

Quote
Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Hickey and the other agent were sitting on top of the backrest with their feet on the seat.

Then their head heights should be roughly the same.

Quote
Hickey stood up, the car decelerated, he lost his balance, and he naturally responded, reflex reaction, and grabbed onto the grip and trigger thus squeezing off a round.

Clint Hill was halfway to JFK's limo and the agent in the back with Hickey was looking to his right at the time of the shot.

   

Bennett was sat down on the seat but Hickey seems to have propped himself up by pinning his feet somehow against the jumpseat, and remained that way. The height of Hickey's head doesn't change in the Altgens photos, the Zapruder and Nix films, and the McIntire photo taken just pass the Underpass.

It may have been Agent Ready who was seen to "fall" by jumping off the car and getting back on.

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2020, 01:11:16 AM »


Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2020, 01:52:29 PM »

This photo shows Hickey with the AR15 after he fired the bullet. You can see Hill on the trunk of the limo. So this is after Hickey had stood up on the seat and has since fallen backwards. So he was much higher when the gun went off.

Here you can see Hill running towards the limo and you can see how far back the follow-up car backed off and doing so is probably what caused Hickey to lose his balance.

The analysis by Pat Speer showing otherwise is flawed? Or the Bronson film is a forgery?
Please direct me to where I can see Pat Speer showing otherwise and the Bronson film.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 02:12:20 PM by Mike Carney »

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2020, 03:25:53 PM »

This photo shows Hickey with the AR15 after he fired the bullet. You can see Hill on the trunk of the limo. So this is after Hickey had stood up on the seat and has since fallen backwards. So he was much higher when the gun went off.

Here you can see Hill running towards the limo and you can see how far back the follow-up car backed off and doing so is probably what caused Hickey to lose his balance.


Photo taken on Stemmons, after both
cars had briefly stopped on the ramp.
 


Fanciful recreation from a movie.
Hickey could have changed his posture during the brief stop on the Stemmons on-ramp.

Quote
The analysis by Pat Speer showing otherwise is flawed? Or the Bronson film is a forgery?
Please direct me to where I can see Pat Speer showing otherwise and the Bronson film.

It's near the bottom of "Chapter 5b: Primary Pieces" ( Link )

Some "Mortal Error" apologists are so removed from reality, one posted the picture below and claimed: "Hickey can be seen in the Altgens photograph standing in the follow-up car" ( Link ). To be standing, Hickey's head would have to be roughly at the level of the heads of the agents standing on the running boards.


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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2020, 03:25:53 PM »


Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2020, 07:35:12 PM »
Pat Speer
"The Kennedy detail forcefully removed Kennedy's body from the hospital at the request of the Kennedy entourage, with the blessing of the new President, Lyndon B. Johnson. Kellerman's taking control of the medical evidence was performed under orders from the President's physician, George Burkley, almost certainly at the request of the Kennedy family."

Who was the “Kennedy detail”?  Who was the “Kennedy entourage”? It was Jackie Kennedy and the Secret Service. The author is just word smiting to pull the wool over our eyes so nothing there.

"The President's brain was kept at Bethesda until it could be further studied, after which Dr. Burkley, now working for President Johnson, gave it to the Secret Service Protective Research Section, where it remained until 1965. So yes, McLaren was unfair in accusing Kellerman of running off with the President's brain. Kellerman never had it in his possession."

This was just McLaren’s understanding and has nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The First Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Second Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“Re-inspecting Number 2”

 Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Third Shot Miss”

"He cites S.M. Holland's initial statement that "After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat" as evidence Hickey shot Kennedy. He fails to tell his viewers that Holland also claimed to see "a puff of smoke come from the trees" after this first shot, and no other puff of smoke. That's right. The smoke observed by Holland and others while standing atop the railroad bridge came from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. So how can McLaren cite them as support a rifle was fired in the middle of the plaza? He can't. So he doesn't. He claims ten witnesses "at ground level" smelled gunpowder, but never lists them."

I will list them:
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
•   Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
•   Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
•   Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder”  WC Vol VII, pg 486
•   Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”  http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19948-the-smell-of-gunpowder-in-dealey-plaza-from-murder-from-within-wind-speed-direction/ 8-30-2012
•   Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
•   Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
•   Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
•   One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin

“He cites Jean Hill's statements as evidence a member of the Secret Service fired a weapon. He fails to tell his viewers that Hill thought the first shot hit Kennedy in the head, and that she thought some or all of the shots she heard after he was hit in the head may have been fired by the Secret Service in retaliation.”

Yeah, that would be Hickey

“He wonders whether Hugh Betzner's recollection he saw "a flash of pink" wasn't a reference to the muzzle blast from Hickey's rifle. that the flash of pink which Betzner observed, while standing 200 feet or so back behind the limousine at the moment of the head shot, was the pink-suited Mrs. Kennedy climbing out onto the back of the limousine, and then crawling back to her seat”.
The “flash of pink” was JFK’s brains be blown out and Hickey falling back down into his seat.
“Margaret Chisolm – Two men stood up and sat back down”


All he is saying is what she saw, we don’t know if McLaren tried to contact her or not.

“Bill and Gayle Newman - The sound of a shot from Hickey's position would have come straight to their left ears. And yet they thought this shot came from behind.”

This can be easily mistaken. Their heads were turned and they heard it through their left ears.

“Dave Powers - “Someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire a gun without me hearing it.”

Powers was not on the car at the time, he was running towards the JFK limo at the time Hickey fired the AR15. Look at the photo of Hickey holding the gun and Powers on the trunk of the JFK limo.
 
“Bronson film”

I can’t make out anything in the Bronson film.

“The Whole Program Miss”

Regardless where the bullet entered the back of JFK’s head, we did see the result of a frangible round blowing his head apart. And with all the melon experiments we saw what happens, small hole in the back of the head and an explosion out the front.

The purpose of Pat Speer’s “story” was to discredit Colin McLaren, Harold Donahue, and the findings in Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. Again you have a dozen or so witnesses that smelled gun smoke, not car exhaust, gun smoke in the motorcade in line with the air flow on the motorcade. You have a dozen or so witnesses that saw Hickey with the gun, some of which thought he had fired it. That AR15 Hickey was holding was the only known source of the bullet that did that kind of damage to a human head.

Now you please tell me where the gun smoke and the frangible round came from?

Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2020, 07:38:45 PM »
"Fanciful recreation from a movie".

I didn't realize that....... and I was wondering about Jackies......... thought it should have been smaller than that, lol

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2020, 07:38:45 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2020, 10:25:26 PM »
Pat Speer
"The Kennedy detail forcefully removed Kennedy's body from the hospital at the request of the Kennedy entourage, with the blessing of the new President, Lyndon B. Johnson. Kellerman's taking control of the medical evidence was performed under orders from the President's physician, George Burkley, almost certainly at the request of the Kennedy family."

Who was the “Kennedy detail”?  Who was the “Kennedy entourage”? It was Jackie Kennedy and the Secret Service. The author is just word smiting to pull the wool over our eyes so nothing there.

"The President's brain was kept at Bethesda until it could be further studied, after which Dr. Burkley, now working for President Johnson, gave it to the Secret Service Protective Research Section, where it remained until 1965. So yes, McLaren was unfair in accusing Kellerman of running off with the President's brain. Kellerman never had it in his possession."

This was just McLaren’s understanding and has nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The First Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Second Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“Re-inspecting Number 2”

 Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

Never said the whole page was going to be about the Donahue/Hickey Theory. Actually I directed you to go "near the bottom of" the page. Now Speer does have a page fully devoted to the Hickey issue called "The Smoking Gun That Lied: a Review of JFK: The Smoking Gun" ( Link ).

Quote
“The Third Shot Miss”

"He cites S.M. Holland's initial statement that "After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat" as evidence Hickey shot Kennedy. He fails to tell his viewers that Holland also claimed to see "a puff of smoke come from the trees" after this first shot, and no other puff of smoke. That's right. The smoke observed by Holland and others while standing atop the railroad bridge came from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. So how can McLaren cite them as support a rifle was fired in the middle of the plaza? He can't. So he doesn't. He claims ten witnesses "at ground level" smelled gunpowder, but never lists them."

Speer seems to think there was actual "smoke" seen on the knoll. His Donahue/Hickey analysis is more grounded. Hard to argue with photos and film.

Quote
I will list them:
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
•   Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
•   Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
•   Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder”  WC Vol VII, pg 486
•   Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”  http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19948-the-smell-of-gunpowder-in-dealey-plaza-from-murder-from-within-wind-speed-direction/ 8-30-2012
•   Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
•   Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
•   Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
•   One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin

Could have been car and motorcycle exhaust from when the front of the motorcycle accelerated out of the kill zone. Knowing a gun had recently been fired might have subconsciously "colored" any similar smell.

Quote
“He cites Jean Hill's statements as evidence a member of the Secret Service fired a weapon. He fails to tell his viewers that Hill thought the first shot hit Kennedy in the head, and that she thought some or all of the shots she heard after he was hit in the head may have been fired by the Secret Service in retaliation.”

Yeah, that would be Hickey

Her affidavit stated:

    "I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but
     everything was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg
     saying "Get down thery [sic] are shooting"."

And her testimony:

    "Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away from
     what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the
     TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents shooting back.
     To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back
     and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well,
     they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know."

Seems to me she's assuming certain things happened.

Quote
“He wonders whether Hugh Betzner's recollection he saw "a flash of pink" wasn't a reference to the muzzle blast from Hickey's rifle. that the flash of pink which Betzner observed, while standing 200 feet or so back behind the limousine at the moment of the head shot, was the pink-suited Mrs. Kennedy climbing out onto the back of the limousine, and then crawling back to her seat”.
The “flash of pink” was JFK’s brains be blown out and Hickey falling back down into his seat.
“Margaret Chisolm – Two men stood up and sat back down”


All he is saying is what she saw, we don’t know if McLaren tried to contact her or not.

“Bill and Gayle Newman - The sound of a shot from Hickey's position would have come straight to their left ears. And yet they thought this shot came from behind.”

This can be easily mistaken. Their heads were turned and they heard it through their left ears.

“Dave Powers - “Someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire a gun without me hearing it.”

Powers was not on the car at the time, he was running towards the JFK limo at the time Hickey fired the AR15. Look at the photo of Hickey holding the gun and Powers on the trunk of the JFK limo.

I take it you mean Agent Clint Hill. Powers was sat on the passenger-side jump-seat. See below:



Quote
“Bronson film”

I can’t make out anything in the Bronson film.

How convenient. Can only show you the water, not make you drink.

Quote
“The Whole Program Miss”

Regardless where the bullet entered the back of JFK’s head, we did see the result of a frangible round blowing his head apart. And with all the melon experiments we saw what happens, small hole in the back of the head and an explosion out the front.

The purpose of Pat Speer’s “story” was to discredit Colin McLaren, Harold Donahue, and the findings in Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. Again you have a dozen or so witnesses that smelled gun smoke, not car exhaust, gun smoke in the motorcade in line with the air flow on the motorcade. You have a dozen or so witnesses that saw Hickey with the gun, some of which thought he had fired it. That AR15 Hickey was holding was the only known source of the bullet that did that kind of damage to a human head.

Now you please tell me where the gun smoke and the frangible round came from?

I personally think a Carcano 6.5mm bullet could account for the trail of fragments in the President's skull. And I don't believe there was "gun smoke" seen on the knoll or at the fence.

The collapse of the Donahue/Hickey Theory isn't much important. I keep the "Mortal Error" book in my "ready-access" library. It's one of the great JFK assassination books. Donahue made a mistake, but the book outlined his rationale and shared his genuine gunsmith experience.

"Best Evidence" was even more off-the-rails with its wound-alteration theory. I keep that book on the shelf, too. It's still a great read. You would do yourself a favor by looking into a few "LN" books and the Warren Report.