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Author Topic: The Real Gloria Calvery  (Read 4842 times)

Online Ray Mitcham

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2018, 11:34:05 PM »
Recently posted by Andrej Stack in answer to the above absurd accusations.

"No, it was not a big problem and the reconstructed location of Prayer Man in Wiegman was the same as in Darnell, only was Prayer Man turned slightly towards his right in Wiegman.

The reason I did not post was that since the model back then was not based on realistic measurements of the doorway but rather on estimates and inferences, I could not be certain in my results. Also, the human mannequin representing Prayer Man was only very approximate, I could not control every joint and angle of the figure as required in this reconstruction. I decided therefore that the next stage will be started only if Prayer Man can be modelled using a human modelling program (Poser 11.1), and the doorway is accurate in all aspects to 1 cm and I was not interested in posting any results obtained with old methods any longer."

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2018, 11:34:05 PM »


Offline Brian Doyle

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The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 06:32:35 AM »
No, it doesn't work that way Ray...What Graves was saying to Stancak was he said that he didn't post a computer graphic for the Wiegman Prayer Man scenario because the portal dimensions were not reliable...Stancak gave one of his classic run-arounds but he never really answered the point...That point was that the portal dimensions for Wiegman were no different than those in Darnell yet Stancak offered a full computer graphic for the Darnell Prayer Man scenario...Ray, if you bothered to pay attention to what was being said, Stancak admits in his first line that the dimensions for Wiegman were no different than those for Darnell...So Stancak is saying two contradicting things at the same time and not answering for it...He admits he made an invalid excuse for not re-creating Wiegman because he had no problem with the Darnell portal dimension that he did use...

Stancak never really answers the point...What Graves is asking him is why didn't he do a computer graphic for Prayer Man in Wiegman? What Stancak fails to answer is since he did a computer graphic for Darnell then why didn't he do one for Wiegman using that allegedly improved program? Stancak is answering why he didn't show a computer graphic using the old program...But that isn't the question Graves asked...Graves asked why he didn't do a computer graphic using the new program like he did for Darnell?

Ray, Stancak is offering a flimsy excuse and he's not answering the point...The reason Stancak avoided doing a computer graphic for Wiegman is because he knew it would all too clearly show that his foot on the step claim didn't work...He avoided it because once Prayer Man was applied to his accurate portal features it refuted his foot on the step claim just like his 2 inch error on Prayer Man's inseam...

     
Quote
My long-term plan is to complete the analysis of Altgens6, return to the reconstruction of Prayer Man's body height in Darnell (I surely will adjust the  height of mannequin's inseam to match Lee Harvey Oswald's inseam)


          Ray, it is important to notice that Andrej finally conceded my point that the inseam he portrayed on his computer graphic Prayer Man was over two inches longer than Frazier's...I have been pointing-out this fatal mistake to Stancak indirectly because some biased moderators are protecting him and I can't confront him directly...So while you claim my observations are "absurd" you will see that Stancak thinks otherwise...In fact he intends to make it his main focus to deal with them and how they affect his work...

Stancak is in a quandry because he doesn't seem to realize he can't just "adjust" the inseam...If you shorten the inseam then physical reality requires that you shorten Prayer Man's height...Stancak's portal dimensions have no effect on this because, if you were paying attention, his heights for Frazier and Prayer Man were very precise and were accompanied by surveyor's measuring sticks with graded inch marks...Since Frazier's height is not in question and is very precise then any adjustment of Prayer Man's inseam downward would have to be accompanied by a reduction in Prayer Man's height and therefore a noticeable departure from what is seen in Darnell as well as the direct measuring marks on the surveyor's yardsticks Stancak includes in his graphics...Stancak has hamstrung his own efforts by providing too much measurable precision that only serves to bear witness against his own failures...This is a very intelligently spelled-out evidence dilemma that requires a much better answer than "absurd accusations"...Anyone following this will see that both you and Andrej have badly failed to live up to what is being said here...

Also:  Andrej is not being totally honest...Prayer Man turns over 70 degrees from Wiegman to Darnell and her head close to 90 degrees...Andrej is avoiding saying directly that Prayer Man's shoulders are squared to the landing in Wiegman because he knows the problems it will cause towards his claims...

This is all very simple Ray...Ask Andrej to post a similar cartoon graphic for Wiegman like he did for Darnell...He won't do it because he knows it will refute him for the reasons I claimed in the other thread...Right now Andrej is blaming a bad program but what he is really saying is his graphic for Wiegman proved that Prayer Man could not be on the step...

I don't think Stancak realizes he is already dead...He doesn't realize the inseam error is an unrecoverable one and that the rest of our height argument, its measurements, and terms are all still bearing and haven't been effectively answered by him...He doesn't realize the game is over and he can't 'adjust' Prayer Man's inseam because he has nowhere to go as far as any adjustments...Shortening Prayer Man by over 2 inches will make him noticeably too short to match the height difference between him and Frazier in Darnell...This is what I have been saying all along and what it proves is Prayer Man is standing on the landing and is therefore too short to be Oswald -as even Stancak agrees...

Checkmate...     
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 04:35:39 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2018, 08:49:42 PM »
The Larsen observation, in a nutshell.

Moving Darnell footage seems to confirm it as there we see the woman with dark top has different colored lower half, if you have that available please post it.
Also note the corner in the above right of the Z image, that's how far she has to run to in -20s, perhaps just a little further.

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2018, 09:44:45 PM »
...Finding the real Calvery is imperative because it proves the timing of Frazier's statement that he turned and asked "Sarah" what the woman running up to the steps had said? ...

Schoolboy error#602
In the 2013 interview, the one you mention most often, Frazier says nothing to Sarah, he allegedly just turned to her "and they had nothing to say".
So does this Calvery moment in Darnell capture the very scene where BWF said absolutely nothing to say anyone about the shooting of which he was up to this point unaware of?
Yes, very probably yes. "Stood still", "said nothing" then probably as he eaarlier confessed to Mack "went down to the basement [to eat his sandwiches].

Compared to the the rest of what this observation of Calvery does to Darnell and Couch, what Frazier was thinking at this exact moment is of no real interest or meaning.

Offline Brian Doyle

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The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2018, 10:51:19 PM »
Schoolboy error#602
In the 2013 interview, the one you mention most often, Frazier says nothing to Sarah, he allegedly just turned to her "and they had nothing to say".
So does this Calvery moment in Darnell capture the very scene where BWF said absolutely nothing to say anyone about the shooting of which he was up to this point unaware of?
Yes, very probably yes. "Stood still", "said nothing" then probably as he eaarlier confessed to Mack "went down to the basement [to eat his sandwiches].

Compared to the the rest of what this observation of Calvery does to Darnell and Couch, what Frazier was thinking at this exact moment is of no real interest or meaning.

Ignorance of the evidence dear boy...In one of his testimonies Frazier detailed that Calvery ran up shouting in a low voice that was too low to hear...Frazier said "I turned to Sarah to ask her what Calvery had said and Sarah said 'I think she said the president has been shot' "...(This is the point that Frazier describes in the 2013 interview as "We then stared at each other for a long time in shock")

In the 6th Floor Museum interview below Frazier confirms this spoken interchange with Sarah and also confirms that Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps before heading up the Elm St extension...Listen to this interview...Frazier went down the steps AFTER he turned and spoke to Sarah...At 34:00 -


(Try to articulate better Barry...Your posts are incoherent)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 11:08:18 PM by Brian Doyle »

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The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2018, 10:51:19 PM »


Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2018, 02:18:47 AM »
That's an appearance, what Mack gave him was an interview, you know the difference? I'll tell you.
Fagin has gone over everything with him beforehand, so there will be no suprises, like he does with all his celebrities,
whereas Frazier at times clearly had no idea what Gary was going to ask him next.

Anyway, why do you keep saying Frazier "said Calvery"? He never does, anywhere. He never knew her, period.
Also I really do hope that one little misplaced word, in a run on sentence, doesn't blow your mind but thank you for pointing it out.

Offline Brian Doyle

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The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2018, 06:47:52 PM »
You don't honestly think you are getting away with that do you Barry? I have already repeated several times that Calvery was still hysterical and was still telling people the president had been shot when she entered the lobby where Molina encountered her and mentioned her by name...Back-tracing of Molina's encounter led researchers to identify Calvery as the hysterical woman who was telling people Kennedy had been shot...

You're nitpicking Barry in order to avoid answering the point...In his Warren Commission testimony Lovelady made clear that the woman was Calvery:

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.
Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where does she work?
Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.
Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?
Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?
Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

I've proven my case...Your pretend, gratuitous devil's advocacy is growing tiresome...

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2018, 12:24:28 AM »
Ignorance of the evidence dear boy...In one of his testimonies Frazier detailed that Calvery ran up shouting in a low voice that was too low to hear...Frazier said "I turned to Sarah to ask her what Calvery had said and Sarah said 'I think she said the president has been shot' "...(This is the point that Frazier describes in the 2013 interview as "We then stared at each other for a long time in shock")

Perhaps it's of little import to you but for you to keep claiming that Frazier called Calvery by name and especially in a sentence atributed to him as above, seems more than a little out of order to me. I mean it's bad enough that we have to deal with him changing things.
All that I was suggesting before(if that's what your kneejerk reaction is referring to above), was that Frazier may have picked up the story from others, not that there's any doubt in my mind that the Calvery event actually happened.
Also never forget, after alledgedly hearing shots during a presidential motorcade, when he learns that someone has actually been shot, he didn't believe it and in the telling he expressed dumbfoundness.  "What did she say?", "Did she say what I thought she said?" but that's a bit late isn't it?  Where's his GD reaction to the shots?  "Did that sound like shooting Sarah?" "Is someone shooting at the Pres' Sarah?".  "OMG Sarah!".  No, nothing.  His contribution only adds to the perfectly reasonable notion that no one near the TSBD realised those sounds(if they even heard them at all) were shots.
 
Why don't you like the idea of Darnell reacting to Baker and just how long after the shooting do you think both both films start?

PS. Someone needs to note down what he said in each interview before we all get sick of hearing him.

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2018, 12:24:28 AM »


Offline Brian Doyle

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The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2018, 01:53:28 AM »
You know what Frazier said and you know where Frazier saw it...I'm not going to respond to your deliberately dishonest entries Barry...You are asking us to believe that after all Frazier described that he didn't see Calvery right in front of him and that wasn't the person he was describing and that he got it later from somebody else...You and I both know you don't really believe that so there's no point in responding...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:55:36 AM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2018, 02:06:34 AM »
Not one mention in this thread of the timing this scenario needs and how it would all work like you need it to Brian, why is that?
How long after Z313 does Darnell and Couch start?  That might be a good starting point.
You just said in Duncan's thread that BS and BL are about 3s from their meeting with Sarah, I say it looks more like 6s.
15s for her run?  You might want to start adding this all up.

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Re: The Real Gloria Calvery
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2018, 02:06:34 AM »


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