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Author Topic: Prayer Woman  (Read 210815 times)

Offline Duncan MacRae

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2018, 01:47:14 PM »
Below: I've cropped, enlarged & enhanced the crucial area of Chris Davidson's animated Gif.


Offline Denis Morissette

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2018, 04:00:27 PM »
Impressive!

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Below: I've cropped, enlarged & enhanced the crucial area of Chris Davidson's animated Gif.


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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2018, 04:00:27 PM »

Offline Duncan MacRae

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2018, 05:58:09 PM »
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Thanks Duncan but your image from two years ago was sharper...

I can only work with what Chris made available in his original Gif.

I've sharpened the frames a little more and added a little bit of color to them.

The detail simply isn't there to enhance any further without degradation taking place.


Online Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2018, 10:12:24 PM »
    Stancak responded to Graves on the Education Forum:


           
Quote
" I can have a look at the leg length problem in my next version of any work which will include Prayer Man.  People differ in the height of their inseam and my model appears to have the inseam high. I paid some attention to it, but in order to measure inseam height, one needs to measure besides the body length also the length of the inner leg from the sole of the foot to the perineum. This cannot be achieved from Lee Harvey Oswald photographs in which he wears loose pants, and in no case from Darnell still because it is blurred and does not show full legs. The leg-to-body ration varies from 45% to 50% in the population, and my model has a proportion which goes to the higher end of the range.

The exact posture of Prayer Man's legs is uncertain just because they cannot be seen reliably in any of the frames. So, I had to design a leg posture myself, and actually I have suggested two leg postures, one in 2016 and one more recently. I certainly can test another leg posture which may possibly appeal better to you. The Darnell model included 15 human figures and I spent time mostly with the new figures. "


This ruminating run-round of Stancak's is typical...He mouths the photo science terms of the issue but doesn't answer the point that is being made...What Stancak fails to answer is the fact his excessive inseam that is 2.5 inches longer than Frazier's has to contain a leg that is far beyond the parameters for tolerable variation...Stancak once again gets away with a non-answer that doesn't address the technical point that is being made...He fails to answer a provable fatal flaw in his model that dismisses his claim and by default proves ours...

What Stancak doesn't seem to realize is he has presented modeling tool measuring sticks with his figures...He has metered very precise height measurements for Frazier and Prayer Man at the tops of their heads that lock them in to the known heights for Oswald and Frazier...Stancak does not address that the step is a known 7 inches in height and when combined with the shown head height for Prayer Man must establish a very precise height for his Prayer Man figure...Plus we already know Oswald's general body proportions from photographs...

What Stancak is not answering here is the image on page 1 of that thread with the measuring stick metered heights for Frazier and Prayer Man doesn't provide any more wiggle room for reducing Prayer Man's height in order to adjust for the overly long inseam...Like I said in another post...Stancak's graphics are actually very precise in certain areas...Because of that Stancak has trapped himself with his own precision and locked himself into highly restricted boundaries of evidence that he can't get out of as easily as he pretends...

What Stancak is getting around answering in the above response is that Prayer Man's leg is too long in his graphic, not just his inseam...Stancak correctly points out that the real measure is not the inseam but the physical body length from the perineum to the heel...But after pointing out the correct forensic methodology he then ignores the fact that it is impossible for a leg to reach from Prayer Man's crotch, as shown in his graphic, to the heel of his foot planted on the step without being at least the length required to do that...

This is the science Graves was getting at but not articulating quite clearly enough...Stancak is still at the same impasse and after offering a ruminating voicing of the scientific problem involved he never quite gets around to answering the serious issue with his evidence...This has nothing to do with photos of Oswald showing his legs...Instead it has everything to do with Stancak's own height illustrations with correct height measurements assigned to both Frazier and Prayer Man...We may not have photos of Oswald to compare but we do have a very precise measurement of Prayer Man's height at 5 foot 9 as Stancak shows in his image...The question then stands if this measurement is very accurate (which it is), and Prayer Man's leg is 2.5 inches too long, then where is Stancak going to get his height reduction from?

If he reduces Prayer Man's leg by the necessary 2.5 inches he is going to have to lift Prayer Man's foot off the step by 2.5 inches and have it floating in the air...Andrej has made the mistake of being too accurate in his computer graphics and therefore trapping himself within his own scientific constraints...He has no wiggle room at the top of Prayer Man's head because his measuring meter shows a very precise 5 foot 9 inches for Prayer Man (Oswald's height)...And he can't use the differences in Oswald's claimed height because he will be going beneath the lower 5 foot 9 height...And he can't use Oswald's 5 foot 11 height because he has locked himself into Frazier's correct 6 foot 1/2 inch height and can't violate the height difference that is visible in Darnell...

In December 2016 I called Andrej out on the Education Forum and challenged him to post a computer graphic of Prayer Man with a foot on the step...I knew he wouldn't be able to make it work...I was banned without explanation when I made that challenge...I have been claiming for many years that Prayer Man would have to have grotesquely long legs to have a foot on the step...You can go back and read posts from over 3 years ago of me saying this...Stancak took 14 months but he finally put out his graphic of the Darnell frame...Let's get down to it...What is happening here is Andrej created computer graphics science that was accurate enough to prove what I was saying and refute Stancak's foot on the step claim...The only credible scientific conclusion that can be made from this is Stancak can't get a correctly-proportioned Prayer Man's leg to reach the step...He has refuted himself and proven my case...And, as his above reply shows, he has failed to credibly account for it when challenged...     

No one on the Education Forum asks Stancak where he is going to get those extra 2.5 inches from? And now Graves has lost the ability to ask...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 10:30:58 PM by Brian Doyle »

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2018, 10:12:24 PM »

Online Brian Doyle

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2018, 11:15:23 PM »
Quote
The location of Prayer Man with one foot down is determined not by his feet but by the relation of his figure to different landmarks in the doorway. These relationships dictate Prayer Man location, and there is just no wiggling room there. Prayer Man could not stand with both his feet on the top landing (in Darnell) because he would not fit the shape of Prayer Man body (being too tiny and having arms located higher compared to what is seen in Darnell) and more importantly, his right elbow would be too far from the edge of the red brick column. Of course, I have tested this variation in my pilot analyses, and will show it in the next work which will address Prayer Man's location and body height.


Stancak speaks Hungarian so I will give him a break for not speaking English as his first language...However the above statement has zero scientific validity...

Stancak is not correct that Prayer Man's body proportions as seen in Darnell preclude him from standing on the landing...There is absolutely no scientific credibility to that claim what so ever...

What Stancak is trying to say is that Prayer Man cannot be standing on the landing because he is visibly too short to be Oswald...And that his arms would be higher if Oswald were up on the landing...Obviously Stancak is restricting his scientific input to only that which conforms to Prayer Man being Oswald while ignoring everything else...That right there alone dismisses Stancak from credibility because valid science is always objective and goes by what is empirically seen and not by what is assumed...What Stancak is saying is he dismisses possibilities simply because they don't match Oswald while forgetting he has shown no proof that it is Oswald...This would usually disqualify a scientist from normal consideration amongst peers in any credible forum...

Stancak forgets that he still hasn't answered the overly long leg issue and that it is still the best determiner of whether Prayer Man is on the step...He's not registering that Prayer Man has to be on the landing because he himself has already proven Prayer Man can't be on the step by his failure to get that leg to reach...

His distance of the bricks from Prayer Man's arm claim is completely without merit...The answer to that is Prayer Man is on the landing and the distance from the bricks is what you see in Darnell...
 

Online Brian Doyle

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2018, 10:45:26 PM »
I wish somebody would tell Stancak that he's drawn a bent left leg over the radiator in his latest offering on the Education Forum...

I have seen a clearer version of Darnell and it shows that what Stancak is representing as a bent left leg in his Prayer Man graphic is actually the radiator in the front entrance window...

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2018, 10:45:26 PM »

Online Larry Trotter

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2018, 09:13:01 AM »
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I can only work with what Chris made available in his original Gif.

I've sharpened the frames a little more and added a little bit of color to them.

The detail simply isn't there to enhance any further without degradation taking place.



For clarification, I only see what I see, and am unable to embrace Mr Davidson's "enhanced" PrayerWoman. And, I continue to base my conclusions about the image known as PrayerWoman/ PrayerPerson/PrayerMan on what I do see, un-enhanced, and a sufficient amount of eyewitness/occupant statements/testimony, including statements that LeeHarveyOswald was not on the TSBD entrance landing at the time.

That said, I maintain agreement with others that the image is that of a female, and base said agreement on my own conclusions, as well as testimony as to who was not present on the landing, added to testimony as to who was there. And, the most likely candidates for the image aka PrayerWoman are Ms SarahStanton and Ms PaulineSanders, with a slight edge favoring Ms Stanton, IMO.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 06:41:54 PM by Larry Trotter »

Online Brian Doyle

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2018, 03:57:05 PM »

As far as the face, the best version of Davidson is Duncan's last image in his first post in this thread on page 1...That image contains enough data to make a definite conclusion by photogrammetry standards...In fact, when it was first posted on the Education Forum every single ROKC member who saw it agreed it appeared to be female...The Prayer Man group is getting away with a falsehood by saying we need a better scan...While it wouldn't hurt, the truth is the Davidson enhancement has enough resolution to make a definitive conclusion that Prayer Man is Stanton as Debra Conway agreed...

The woman seen in Davidson has to be Sarah Stanton and no one else because we have now confirmed that Gloria Calvery has reached the base of the steps in the Couch/Darnell clip...The Prayer Man people are deliberately ignoring that all known logic requires Calvery had just finished shouting "the president has been shot" on her way to the point at the base of the steps that she is seen at in Darnell...I have posted this many times and it has gotten no response from the Prayer Man people...Kamp responded saying I am lying about speaking with Calvery's son...It has to be Stanton for this reason and for the reason proper analysis will show Prayer Man has stocky body parts like "heavy-set" Sarah...It is my opinion that nobody has a right to ignore this evidence...

There can be only one conclusion, and that is Stanton has just finished her shouting run and Frazier has turned to Sarah and asked her what Calvery had just said...Prayer Man and Frazier face each other and never move in Darnell even though other people have moved significantly...That is because they are focused on each other and talking to each other...

Stancak knows he is in trouble with this so he went out and invented a new woman and placed her behind "Shelley" and Frazier...Not only is there no woman in that spot but there is also no Shelley on the landing at that juncture since the one thing Kamp did get right is the fact Shelley and Lovelady are seen going up the Elm St extension in Couch/Darnell...The face Stancak is calling Stanton is probably Sanders...Stancak desperately needs to create this artificial Stanton because he is claiming Frazier turned around 180 degrees and spoke to Stanton behind him after the Couch/Darnell clip ended...Because Stancak operates under the assumption that Prayer Man must be Oswald he is forced to do this and is ignoring our conclusive evidence...He is just doing an exercise in ignoring obvious evidence...

The strategy of the Prayer Man side is to ignore all evidence that refutes their claim and hijack all venues with corrupted biased moderators

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2018, 03:57:05 PM »

Online Brian Doyle

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2018, 09:32:41 PM »
Stancak has attempted a defense of his Darnell image computer graphics on the Education Forum...This is usually where people's eyes roll and they get bored with the minor details but it is also where Stancak finally loses if you are following this...So all one or two of you out there pay attention...

Stancak admits that his Prayer Man mannequin with a foot on the step doesn't work so he tries to solve it by offering two options...The first is his Prayer Man cartoon with a leg on the step and the second is a new version with both feet on the landing...Stancak then uses the logic that since the Prayer Man with both feet on the landing doesn't match certain features of Prayer Man in Darnell that proves Prayer Man can't have both feet on the landing...This is, of course, completely scientifically invalid and not based on any credible scientific methodology, but Stancak doesn't let that get in the way of his pseudo-analysis computer graphic science...

It is somewhat dumb-strikingly unbelievable how Stancak goes about in achieving this claim...What he does is take his Prayer Man mannequin and shrink him down by a visible percentage in order to get him to fit the size of Prayer Man in Darnell while having both feet on the landing...He then goes to show how his Prayer Man cartoon is too thin and therefore doesn't match the features of Prayer Man in Darnell...I'm not sure which is more unbelievable, that Stancak tries to get away with this Rube Goldberg methodology or that the Education Forum members stand back and don't notice?

What Stancak is doing is conditioning his readers that his Oswald-like 5 foot 9 cartoon mannequin is the main reference point and going measure by which to determine all things Prayer Man in photo analysis...He then uses the ROKC method of showing images of his cartoon mannequin interposed to varying degrees with the image of Prayer Man in Darnell...By doing this Stancak allows himself to slowly work his cartoon Prayer Man into a reference-able entity by which to make scientific determinations...But in reality Stancak's cartoon Prayer Man mannequin is actually something that has no basis in reality what so ever except being a slavic-like man pulled out of the options for male figures in his computer modeling program...Like ROKC, what Stancak is doing is repeating his cartoon Prayer Man image often enough in his presentations that he has now subtly, psychologically worked it in to being an accepted given that can now be used to discount other things...

Meanwhile the best representation for Prayer Man is the actual image of Prayer Man as seen in Darnell...The only valid computer graphics that can be used as proxy figures designed to run Prayer Man through scientific photo analysis tests are graphics that look the most similar to Prayer Man in Darnell...What Stancak has done is slowly switched the main reference-able image of Prayer Man from that seen in Darnell to his computer graphic cartoon mannequin...Stancak is now referring to these figures as being interchangeable, but then makes the important leap to discounting the real film image of Prayer Man by means of his artificial figure...When he does that he violates the rules of science because the original Darnell Prayer Man is always the more scientifically precise figure...In short, Stancak is trying to get away with murder scientifically...

Typical of Stancak and ROKC, he is looking through the telescope backwards and trying to discount the real Prayer Man by means of his admittedly-faulty Prayer Man mannequin...Stancak lines his shrunken mannequin with both feet on the landing up with the real Prayer Man in Darnell and says you can see the mannequin is obviously too thin so therefore Prayer Man can't be on the landing...He justifies the shrinking by saying you need to do that to match the heights of both figures...This, of course, is scientifically absurd but that doesn't stop Stancak who stretches legs and shrinks people to make his Oswald as Prayer Man theory fit...

As far as credible photo analysis science the way to go about this is to look at the Prayer Man figure in Darnell directly (or use original images as Gordon required)...What Stancak is trying to work around is that Prayer Man is as big as Prayer Man in Darnell on its own, separate from Stancak's computer modeling mannequin...I don't think Stancak realizes he has once again used graphics that are precise enough to refute his own claim...He's done that again here and I'll explain why...Since Stancak's mannequin is designed as an average build fit man, by overlapping it with Prayer Man in Darnell and showing Prayer Man is more stocky, what Stancak is actually showing (once again) is that his 5 foot 9 Oswald-like thin figure is too thin to fit Prayer Man's real dimensions as seen in the film image...So, in other words, he has refuted himself once again and proven our case for us while trying to do the opposite...What Stancak has really proven is Prayer Man's dimensions are too stocky to match Oswald's...

Oh, and by the way...Stancak still hasn't answered for the science that proves his 2.5 inch too long leg on his mannequin proves that Prayer Man can't be on the step...Stancak keeps telling us he'll try to solve that and let us know...But he's not answering to the science that shows there is no way to solve it once Stancak realizes he has trapped himself within the precision of the rest of his portal dimensions...As I said before...His portal dimensions are pretty accurate...If Stancak were a better scientist he would realize he has nowhere to go as far as finding that extra 2.5 inches...He has proven his Prayer Man doesn't fit...He's going to have to surrender to the fact it proves Prayer Man isn't on the step...

There's another thing most people don't notice...Both Kamp and Stancak do not use the best resolution images...When I was on the Education Forum part of the rules that were set was all debaters had to use the best images...Both Kamp and Stancak use blurry images because they are trying to hide the fact their claims don't match the visible images when closely examined...If Stancak were to use the best, sharpest images of Prayer Man it would be even more apparent that his cartoon figure does not match Prayer Man...

Finally, Stancak is showing a yellow outline of where he thinks Prayer Man's bent left leg is in Darnell...I have found a clearer image of Darnell and you can clearly see Stancak has outlined a bent left leg over what is clearly the radiator in the Depository lobby...

Stancak's shorter arm for a shorter person claim is garbage and if a professional photo analysis expert were to look at his claim he would see that Stancak has shrunken Prayer Man far more than the maximum 12 inch depth difference perspective shift would require...As I said before, Prayer Man's arms are longer and thicker not because he has a leg on the step that Stancak can't make work but because he is the thicker, stockier "heavy-set" Sarah Stanton - as we've more than proven...

This post should be cut & pasted to the Education Forum if they are really interested in the truth...


 
   
   
     
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:03:45 AM by Brian Doyle »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2018, 09:37:43 PM »
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          This post should be cut & pasted to the Education Forum if they are really interested in the truth...

If the Education Forum wanted to know what you think they wouldn't have banned you.

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2018, 09:37:43 PM »

 

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