Prayer Woman

[Alan Ford]

Wrong, Alan. The WWIII scenario was part of the plan to *force* the investigators - from Hoover on down - to back off and switch to the "crazy Commie did it" reasoning behind the murder.  The *planners* knew that if they tried to make it appear that Castro was behind the plots, it'd give them the excuse to invade Cuba.

When Hoover and LBJ understood this, and didn't want to have millions of deaths and the destruction of the world in front of them, they watered it all down to Crazy Commie did it and that was the end of it. It's the same scenario that the CIA planners had in mind for the BOP - they told Kennedy it would work; when it didn't, they then went back to him and told him he needed to send in the troops to complete it.  When he shockingly refused, we know what happened.

Again, you're greatly overthinking this - to think that Hoover and all of the rest added in the WWIII scenario poor analyzing.

I'm afraid you're underthinking this, Michael. You have failed----in fact, you haven't even tried----to explain why LHO-as-Lone-Nut-Gunman is the only narrative the conspirators could possibly have wanted to push.

[Larry Trotter]

Like a lot of CTers, Alan, try not to overthink the "conspiracy."  It didn't take ridiculous theories like squirreling away the body mid-drive to Love, throwing the body down into the cargo hold, squireling it away at Andrews in full view of live TV cameras and the family, and altering it...for what reason?

It didn't take faking the Z film and then ("Oh, by the way") altering the Nix film, and then the Muchmore film, and all the rest. It didn't take having an assassination HQ down in the basement of Ruby's nightclub (an actual "theory" by someone posted on the Ed Forum).

And, for the love of god, it didn't take finding an Oswald clone off the streets of Hungary 13 years before 11/22 - and a clone of Oswald's Mom no less - to groom him and live in the real Oswald's shadow as a young boy until 11/22.

Narrow it down to the bare essentials and it makes a whole lot more sense than all the rest of the mumbo jumbo. Read Bill Simpich's State Secret - there, you'll find that Oswald was not just some innocent dock worker like the WC wants him to be. As Simpich says, Oswald was a "spy in his own mind" but was little more than a low-level intel guy who could be easily led around, probably with promises of something more down the road. He could easily be moved into the TSDB building when it was decided that the shooting was going to take place there.

Meanwhile, if they knew then he was going to be the patsy, then the wheels turned to get it ready - faked backyard photos (Oswald himself said they were faked), getting him to hand out pro Commie literature in NO and all the rest. They even got him to say things along those lines on TV in NO. Watch that film clip - it's not hard to see he's play-acting his role.

On 11/22 they probably told him to stand by the phone for an important phone call. Did he know this was all going to go down? It's hard to say but they knew he could be relied on to do what he was told. It makes absolutely no sense for him to be up on those steps during the actual assassination - it would have destroyed the entire charade of "Crazy Lee shooting the president."

Was he supposed to be gunned down at the TSBD? Probably not because 15 minutes after the shooting, a description of his *original* marked description from his false defection (read State Secret) was announced on the radio. Meanwhile, he casually takes his slow ride to Oak Cliff, all the while JDT is gunned down, marking him even more as a madman.

The key to the plot is his "I'm a patsy" statement.  He obviously broke character and blurted that out.  Think about it for a minute.  My Dad was also an "order filler" and "dock worker" for most of his life.  But I can guarantee you that he, and many others did not know what that word meant. Oswald did and he was no dummy - his wheels had obviously started spinning at this point when he said that - "OMG I see what's happening now." He had a lot of time to think about what had been going on before was murdered on Sunday.

Of course the WC wanted him to be like Tim McVeigh years later - a genuine angry "lone nut" who defiantly blew up the Fed building. Which leads me to the idea that Oswald was not quite as innocent as we think.  IMO I think he knew *something* was going to go down on Elm Street - how much he knew was probably kept from him and we'll never know. But because LHO was not stupid - he was after all, trained at the intel base in Japan and prepped for his fake defection to Russia - he couldn't possibly have been kept 100% in the dark about 11/22.

So you see, Alan, you DO have to tie everything together in the pre and post assassination planning in order to make sense of it all.  You can't cherry pick just to try to explain something that makes no sense - in this case being it's just *gotta be Oswald up on the steps there*.

Michael, do you ever wonder what is proven by the LeeHarveyOswald/PrayerManTheory becoming an acceptable scenario? To be granted a pardon maybe? He was never tried and convicted as a LoneGunmanAssassin in the PresidentJohnKennedySr Assassination, or as a shooter in the PoliceOfficerJD Tippet Murder, so as I understand it, no pardon can be available.

In any event, I have to conclude the LHO/PM Theory to be forever nonprovable. And, I maintain my conclusion as well that the LHO/LGA theory is just that, a theory, and one that remains unproven.

However, I have to conclude that too many coincidences are involved for a LHO non-connection to the assassination and/or situational event(s), although I also conclude any connections to be indirect, and possibly unwilling, but any 'escape' from involvement had to be quite possibly very limited.

[Michael Walton]

I'm afraid you're underthinking this, Michael. You have failed----in fact, you haven't even tried----to explain why LHO-as-Lone-Nut-Gunman is the only narrative the conspirators could possibly have wanted to push.

Alan, I just described the alternative - the "Castro did it and let's start WWIII" scenario. And when LBJ Hoover and other powers that be didn't want to start WWIII, then they went to the next scenario - the "crazy Commie lone nut" did it.

Otherwise, there really wasn't any need to create a second, third, and fourth scenario or plot.  They had their perfect patsy, someone who could be subtly led around making him think he was doing some kind of intel work, all the while putting him in place to take the fall. They had it all worked out and this is why the kill zone was actually overdone - they left no chances, which means they had shooters all around Dealey. They wanted to make sure 100% that he was going to be dead by the time the car drove under the triple underpass. All of the effort with Oswald would have been for naught if a single shooter from Dal-Tex or wherever would have some how missed his shot.

If you're smart, you know well enough that a single shot from the Dal-Tex building, an easy shot from a mere 100 yards, in the center of his head would have easily done the deed. But why take that chance? So the kill zone was actually overkill IMO.

This is why, too, I don't believe that the so-called other plots in Chicago and Tampa ever happened. It was going to be Dallas where the police department was one of the most corrupt in any big city at that time. This doesn't necessarily mean the DPD was in on the plot - it simply means they can be told what to do. And let's face it, there were many, many people who did not like the Kennedys, the president and the family. It wasn't as if he was Uncle Abe back in the 1860's.

And it was going to be Dallas because Johnson could put the heat on folks down there.  He was from there and could tell them what to do.  This does not mean Johnson was in on it - again, all the groundwork was laid, the shooting was completed but overdone, and now it's a simple matter of getting people to play ball with the official story. The very first example of that is Rather on live national TV fudging the Zapruder film description.  The next is the Katenbach memo. The third was Wade coming out and saying, "We have our man," and so on.

The only remaining loose end was Oswald - he was probably supposed to be killed in some kind of gunfight in the theater (headline - KENNEDY ASSASSIN KILLED BY COP IN THEATER; sub headline - OSWALD THREATENED POLICE WITH PISTOL). Why in the world did he have that pistol? It doesn't make logical sense to have one unless someone *told him* to take one and go to the theater.

When the gunfight didn't happen according to plan, they basically said xxxx it and snuck Ruby in to get rid of him and on national TV no less.

[Steve Howsley]

... the kill zone was actually overdone ... they left no chances, which means they had shooters all around Dealey. They wanted to make sure 100% that he was going to be dead by the time the car drove under the triple underpass...

Where is the evidence?

[Michael Walton]

Where is the evidence?

Do your own research, please. There's plenty of it on here and elsewhere. I have no time for this...

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Where is the evidence?

Yes, let's kill the President in broad daylight in front of hundreds of people - many with cameras - and use multiple shooters located all over the place.

This makes no sense at all, of course.

These are very powerful conspirators with lots of resources. So they decided to use the most convoluted, complex plan possible.

Hey, it's fun being a conspiracy advocate. You can make up all kinds of imaginative things. Double agents, and spies, and world war and secret this and secret that.

Gary Mack recognized much of this conspiracy mongering before he died and changed his views. Yes, he was a conspiracy believer - he thought Oswald had help. But he was smart enough and open minded enough to realize that most of what the conspiracy people like Simpich and Peter Scott argue is just nonsense. But fun nonsense.

[Alan Ford]

Alan, I just described the alternative - the "Castro did it and let's start WWIII" scenario. And when LBJ Hoover and other powers that be didn't want to start WWIII, then they went to the next scenario - the "crazy Commie lone nut" did it.

Otherwise, there really wasn't any need to create a second, third, and fourth scenario or plot.  They had their perfect patsy, someone who could be subtly led around making him think he was doing some kind of intel work, all the while putting him in place to take the fall. They had it all worked out and this is why the kill zone was actually overdone - they left no chances, which means they had shooters all around Dealey. They wanted to make sure 100% that he was going to be dead by the time the car drove under the triple underpass. All of the effort with Oswald would have been for naught if a single shooter from Dal-Tex or wherever would have some how missed his shot.

If you're smart, you know well enough that a single shot from the Dal-Tex building, an easy shot from a mere 100 yards, in the center of his head would have easily done the deed. But why take that chance? So the kill zone was actually overkill IMO.

This is why, too, I don't believe that the so-called other plots in Chicago and Tampa ever happened. It was going to be Dallas where the police department was one of the most corrupt in any big city at that time. This doesn't necessarily mean the DPD was in on the plot - it simply means they can be told what to do. And let's face it, there were many, many people who did not like the Kennedys, the president and the family. It wasn't as if he was Uncle Abe back in the 1860's.

And it was going to be Dallas because Johnson could put the heat on folks down there.  He was from there and could tell them what to do.  This does not mean Johnson was in on it - again, all the groundwork was laid, the shooting was completed but overdone, and now it's a simple matter of getting people to play ball with the official story. The very first example of that is Rather on live national TV fudging the Zapruder film description.  The next is the Katenbach memo. The third was Wade coming out and saying, "We have our man," and so on.

The only remaining loose end was Oswald - he was probably supposed to be killed in some kind of gunfight in the theater (headline - KENNEDY ASSASSIN KILLED BY COP IN THEATER; sub headline - OSWALD THREATENED POLICE WITH PISTOL). Why in the world did he have that pistol? It doesn't make logical sense to have one unless someone *told him* to take one and go to the theater.

When the gunfight didn't happen according to plan, they basically said xxxx it and snuck Ruby in to get rid of him and on national TV no less.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Michael. Who, in your opinion, was the 'they' who planned and pulled off the assassination?