Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 19 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Prayer Woman  (Read 334846 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1719
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2640 on: February 15, 2019, 02:44:48 AM »
Now! What happens next?

Let's hand over to Mr James Jarman (HSCA interview 9.25.77):

JARMAN: Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see.
INTERVIEWER: Oh.
JARMAN: And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.


If that's Mr Lovelady near the bottom west of the steps in Darnell, then we can work out the sequence of events:

-------Officer Baker rushes past Mr Lovelady and up the steps
-------Mr Lovelady turns around to look up after him
-------He sees the police officer grabbing hold of Mr Oswald (whom Mr Lovelady notices now for the first time) and pulling him into the vestibule, shouting, 'Do you work here?'
-------Mr Lovelady misunderstands the encounter------Mr Oswald is not 'coming out the door', he's been there all along!; and all Officer Baker is doing is seeking assistance from the first man he can grab
-------Mr Truly, meanwhile, has followed Officer Baker up the steps... he offers to give the police officer the assistance he is seeking ('Yes he works here, officer, but I'm the building manager, I'll help you').

Now!

Mr Lovelady's mistaken interpretation of this exchange between Mr Oswald and Officer Baker-----------i.e. he thinks the officer has aggressively 'stopped' Mr Oswald from leaving the building and Mr Truly has stepped in to vouch for his employee------------is exactly the story that DPD will be telling the press about later this day:

Oswald was stopped by one of our officers as he tried to leave the building, but the officer, who was rushing into the building, let him go when the building manager told him Oswald worked there.

Friends, the coincidence between Mr Jarman's account and the first-day DPD line is no coincidence at all!

---------------> Mr Oswald went out to watch the Presidential Parade.
---------------> He was standing beside Mr Shelley as the President was passing.
---------------> Just after the shooting, a police officer did come running in to the 1st floor, grabbing Mr Oswald and pulling him into the vestibule.

This is the real 'lunchroom incident', and Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz all about it!

Thumb1:

"B" is not Otis Williams. "E" is Otis Williams.

Offline Larry Trotter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2641 on: February 15, 2019, 03:27:00 AM »
If these IDs of the people in the Altgens photo and Wiegman film are sound (apart, of course, from Ms Stanton, whom we know to be to Mr Frazier's left at this time)-------------



-------------then we can understand that, between Hughes and Wiegman,
A) Mr Lovelady, order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and near the centre of the stairway
B) Mr Shelley, in reaction to Mr Lovelady's movement and/or in order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and a little further east.

Prayer Man (Mr Oswald) remains in the same position from Hughes to Wiegman.

From Wiegman to Darnell, he will remain in the same spot, though his posture may well change:



Thumb1:
Of the IdentifiedPersonImages as filmed, including PersonImage C, misidentified as SarahStanton, who has been correctly identified as RuthDean, can any evidence be provided that anyone gave sworn statements/testimony confirming the then presence of AccusedAssassin LeeHarveyOswald at said filming?

Can any known area occupants' eyewitness testimony/sworn statement evidence be provided indicative of AccusedAssassin LeeHarveyOswald
being present as filmed, on the landing anywhere, especially in the PrayerPersonImage location?

Provided for review:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337201/m1/1/

 ;)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 06:59:49 PM by Larry Trotter »

Offline Brian Doyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
Prayer Woman
« Reply #2642 on: February 15, 2019, 04:42:32 AM »
In Lovelady's HSCA interview he named Shelley Frazier and Stanton as being beside him...In the Depository front steps imagery we can see Shelley to Lovelady's left, Frazier behind him, and Prayer Man to Lovelady's right...That would make Sarah Stanton Prayer Man...

Both Kamp and DisinGenio are aware of this but they don't inform the reader that Lovelady got to finish the name he was about to mention when Ball cut him off...

Ball cut Lovelady off at Stanton because he was aware that she had witnessed Oswald with a Coke on the 2nd floor staircase landing and wanted to focus on her...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:15:34 AM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2181
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2643 on: February 15, 2019, 06:27:21 AM »
It's not actually his discovery but, that aside, what is so amazing about "Bart Kamp's discovery"? I don't get it. All I see is an expansion on what Oswald was heard to have said in one of his interviews. It was merely one of Oswald's many lies. Not a single witness placed him out in front of the building watching the motorcade pass by. Not one.  There is nothing that corroborates that particular lie. But you Prayer Man cultists have been doing a circle jerk over it

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: Prayer Man is Oswald.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Not even Oswald said he went out front!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: There's lots of evidence pointing to the contrary.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? There's no evidence to the contrary!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: What about Harry Holmes's WC testimony, and...

LONE NUTTER: You call that evidence? Ha ha ha. Nothing to see here!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: What if we were to find hard evidence that Oswald said he went out front?

LONE NUTTER: So you admit you have no hard evidence! Ha ha ha. Try harder!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: Actually, we have just uncovered a note written by Agent James Hosty which states that Oswald said he went out front.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Oswald was a liar!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: But the Hosty note proves that Captain Fritz and co. lied about what he said in custody.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Oswald was a liar!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: But Prayer Man is standing just where Oswald puts himself.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Prayer Man is a bilocating woman in a male-receding-hairline wig. Ha ha ha. Try harder!

Offline Brian Doyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
Prayer Woman
« Reply #2644 on: February 15, 2019, 06:43:12 AM »
PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: Prayer Man is Oswald.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Not even Oswald said he went out front!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: There's lots of evidence pointing to the contrary.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? There's no evidence to the contrary!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: What about Harry Holmes's WC testimony, and...

LONE NUTTER: You call that evidence? Ha ha ha. Nothing to see here!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: What if we were to find hard evidence that Oswald said he went out front?

LONE NUTTER: So you admit you have no hard evidence! Ha ha ha. Try harder!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: Actually, we have just uncovered a note written by Agent James Hosty which states that Oswald said he went out front.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Oswald was a liar!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: But the Hosty note proves that Captain Fritz and co. lied about what he said in custody.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Oswald was a liar!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: But Prayer Man is standing just where Oswald puts himself.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Prayer Man is a bilocating woman in a male-receding-hairline wig. Ha ha ha. Try harder!


Harry Holmes mentioned Oswald saying that when he heard a commotion he went downstairs to see what was going on...The correct interpretation of Holmes, that Alan has already been repeatedly told of, is that Holmes is describing Oswald coming down to the Depository lobby from the lunch room after Baker confronted him in the 2nd floor lunch room...Holmes made the mistake of conflating the lunch room encounter with the lobby stop...They are two separate events...In any case Oswald's wording that he came downstairs to the lobby forces him to be in the 2nd floor lunch room prior and not outside as Prayer Man on the front steps...

The rest of what Alan writes is pure BS...Hosty's notes do not prove Fritz was lying...I'm not going to type it all out again but if you read my posts here they explain the reason...

I take particular exception to Alan using my discovery of Sarah Stanton's witnessing for such dishonest ends...

Richard Gilbride also needs mention because of his work on the subject...

Edit:  And now we have Jarman's testimony saying Oswald came through the offices and down the front steps to the lobby where he was stopped...

It is painful seeing Jim DiEugenio, with all his talent, degenerating in to a Kamp cheerleader and lynch mob member...I can't understand why Jim had issues with Fetzer when he is now rubber-stamping any nuttery that comes from Kamp...

To show the nature of the Prayer Man trolls they have been checking in with new posters under weird names and posting idiotic posts that are identical to the Jim DiEugenio-recommended website that hosts the Prayer Man group...

What is bizarre is that otherwise fairly knowledgeable researchers support Kamp and his Prayer Man garbage on the Education Forum...It reminds me of some of the more famous researchers who accepted a member tile on Ralph Cinque's Oswald as Doorway Man site...

The Prayer Man website trolls who post this material do me a compliment by not being able to intelligently answer my proof that Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton or that Kamp is deliberately taking Hosty out of context...DiEugenio has made a joke out himself...

You can see these Prayer Man website trolls don't bother to answer the provable evidence I outlined in the post they quoted...Jim DiEugenio gives these obvious crazies his full recommendation and backs their material (and their trolling)...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 07:27:41 AM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2181
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2645 on: February 15, 2019, 07:20:37 AM »
From 5/24/64 New York Herald Tribune article by Dom Bonafede:



They had a big discussion down at the FBI and one guy said it just had to be Oswald.

? ? ?

This makes no sense. Why would the FBI be relieved that a figure in the doorway at the time of the Presidential Parade was not Mr Oswald? I mean, not even Oswald himself was claiming to have gone outside to watch the Presidential Parade!

Did these FBI guys never talk to one another? Agent Hosty could have set their minds at ease in a trice and saved them all this Lovelady bother! 'Don't worry, boys, Oswald says he was in the lunchroom. Look, here's my notes from the interrogation.'

 :D
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 07:34:02 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Brian Doyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
Prayer Woman
« Reply #2646 on: February 15, 2019, 03:38:55 PM »
This makes no sense. Why would the FBI be relieved that a figure in the doorway at the time of the Presidential Parade was not Mr Oswald? I mean, not even Oswald himself was claiming to have gone outside to watch the Presidential Parade!

Did these FBI guys never talk to one another? Agent Hosty could have set their minds at ease in a trice and saved them all this Lovelady bother! 'Don't worry, boys, Oswald says he was in the lunchroom. Look, here's my notes from the interrogation.'

 :D


Because nuts with lacking research skill were calling Lovelady Oswald because of a vague resemblance at a distance...After Doorway Man was proven to be Lovelady a new group of nuts sprang up who were calling Sarah Stanton Oswald one person over from Lovelady...

"In a trice" is a British expression - so it makes me wonder who Alan Ford is and what website he is penetrating this board for?

Offline Brian Doyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
Prayer Woman
« Reply #2647 on: February 15, 2019, 04:08:35 PM »
A few posts back Alan Ford got reckless and finally admitted that Lovelady was over against the west wall of the portal in the Hughes film...You can see Lovelady in his reddish shirt and white T-shirt over there...Lovelady placed himself in that precise spot in his 1964 FBI statement where he said he was "over against the west wall of the entranceway when the limousine went by the Depository"...

In that same statement Lovelady said Shelley and Sarah Stanton were "next to me"...

In his post Alan got reckless and admitted that the man in the reddish shirt was Lovelady...Alan also added that Shelley could be seen to his left...

Alan is so used to his wacky and wild posting, that doesn't pay attention to critical details, that he didn't realize he had just made the same argument I have been making that he refused to acknowledge...If Lovelady is seen against the west wall in Hughes, and Shelley is next to him to his left, as he described in his 1964 FBI interview, then that means the only remaining spot for Stanton is Prayer Man...

The Prayer Man people have destroyed the credibility of the research community because you can post this damning proof of even the Prayer Man people slipping-up and indirectly admitting Prayer Man was Stanton and it gets no reaction...They ignore it and the rest of the community turns-in its credibility by allowing them because this is no longer a fact and evidence-based issue...It is now a cult religion issue where arguments and evidence don't matter for the Prayer Man side who are now infallible under their cult leader Jim D and his really-convincing demagoguery posing as research where Jim is allowed to ignore all the damning evidence of the opposition while making his oh so sincere pleadings for Bart Kamp and his rotten case...

Alan is so crazy that he repeated my evidence exactly and didn't even notice...When I brought it to his attention he ignored it and no one called him on it...Alan is free to post his insanity free of any checks and balances because Alan is arguing for the Bart Kamp-led Prayer Man cult that will solve any assassination problems just by believing in Jim D and his circus tent preaching...

It is ironic that Cinque and Fetzer got their victory...Only not the way they expected...And they got it through Jim DiEugenio and the rest of the community that decided their internet cliques and website power were more important than good research...



« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 04:37:48 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Brian Doyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
Prayer Woman
« Reply #2648 on: February 15, 2019, 05:02:25 PM »
The Prayer Man people are showing their trolling mettle by creating new 1 post accounts and entering Bart Kamp website material...These people are world class hypocrites because anyone who dares post the correct evidence on their sites gets booted by Kamp because Kamp can only exist where his BS isn't challenged and he knows it...

As is their usual level of input they don't mind ignoring the actual substance and arguments in order to lower the discussion to their trolling level like they do on their home site...

They validate my proof by being unable to answer it and resorting to trolling and ad hom instead of answering the clearly spelled-out evidence...

Over on Moircet's page I badly undressed Andrej Stancak and showed fatal flaws in his latest computer graphics of Prayer Man...Andrej had shown sun on Prayer Man's bent leg that wasn't there in the original photography...That was poetic justice because Andrej got the sun plane he drew in his graphics from me...I got stupidly mocked by the Prayer Man site when I entered the sun/shadow plane as an important forensic indicator...It is satisfying to know it turned out to be what refuted their case and by their own words...He also didn't notice that the white of the radiator was showing in the original image therefore proving it wasn't blocked by Prayer Man's bent left leg like he had it...Once again Andrej had refuted himself and I was the only one to notice...In effect these fatal mistakes proved Prayer Man was standing with both feet on the landing platform and was therefore too short in height to be Oswald...Andrej quit Moricet's page in reaction...He knew he would be protected from intelligent criticism over on the websites that have been hijacked by the Prayer Man mob...

"False information" that this Prayer Man pseudo-handle never bothers to show...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:04:02 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2181
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2649 on: February 15, 2019, 05:03:47 PM »
Mr Lovelady in the Hughes film.



Behind him can be seen a figure in the Prayer Man spot.

I believe the figure just to Prayer Man's left is... Mr Bill Shelley.

'Out with Bill Shell[e]y in front'

Now!

Mr Shelley says something a little odd in his Warren testimony:

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.


This is supposedly several minutes after the assassination.  Yet Mr Shelley feels in a position to tell us confidently where Mr Piper watched the motorcade from-----and that he himself saw Mr Piper 'coming back' from there as though fresh from having just seen the motorcade!

What's going on here?  ???

A good place to start is the fact that Mr Piper himself, in his Warren testimony the following day (April 8th), will be noticeably less confident in saying where he watched the motorcade from:

Mr. BALL What did you sit on?
Mr. PIPER. On a box.
Mr. BALL. Could you see out the window?
Mr. PIPER. Yes, I could see out the window but I couldn't see anything---too many people.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch there?
Mr. PIPER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's motorcade went by?
Mr. PIPER. Now, I don't know-I was sitting there, I'm sure.
Mr. BALL. When the President went by, where were you sitting?
Mr. PIPER. Probably sitting there in the same place.


Very odd indeed! It's almost as though Mr Piper is treading carefully here, nervous that Mr Ball may be about to confront him with evidence to the contrary.

-------------------First he tells Mr Ball that he chose to watch the motorcade from a place from which he 'couldn't see anything--too many people'!
-------------------Then he tells Mr Ball that this was only 'probably' the place from which he couldn't see anything!

Also! Compare (and contrast) the following from his 11/23/63 Sheriff's Dept. statement:

I went to a front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass

A curious journey indeed from "I saw the President pass" (11/23/63) to "I couldn't see anything" (4/8/64)!

Now! Consider the very weird reason Mr Piper gives in his testimony for getting up and leaving his vantage point between the 2nd and 3rd shots:

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I did it to see what time it was---when all this happened---to see what time it was.
Mr. BALL. What time was it?
Mr. PIPER. It was about between 12:30---between 12:27 and 12:30--something like that, as near as I can remember.


If this is weird enough behaviour, Mr Piper's story actually gets even weirder!

In his 11/23/63 Sheriff's Dept. statement he gives a different time:

"I [...] looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:25PM."

12:25PM? Why, that's the time the motorcade had originally been scheduled to pass the building!

Friends, here's what I'm driving at:

I strongly doubt Mr Piper watched the motorcade through one of the low-to-zero-visibility windows at front of first floor. I strongly doubt he ran back to check the time.

I think he may have indeed watched the parade through glass, but the glass not of one of the windows-----the glass of the front door.

If so, then he will have seen
A) the President pass
B) Mr Oswald 'out with Bill Shelley in front'.

That would be the same Bill Shelley who will rather gratuitously (and illogically) mention to Mr Ball that Mr Piper was only now-----------several minutes after the shooting------------'coming back' from having watched the motorcade from the other corner of the first floor... Talk about over-correction!

Question! Does anyone have a good estimate of what time the larger street scene photo here was taken at? It could be important... :o



Thank you!  Thumb1:

 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:20:50 PM by Alan Ford »

 

Mobile View