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Author Topic: Prayer Woman  (Read 334818 times)

Offline Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #2630 on: February 14, 2019, 05:01:46 PM »
Sandy Larsen wrote:

Quote
Sure you can disagree with me. But your opinion won't be worth a lick of salt unless you actually study my proof and show me where it goes wrong.

And when you say you disagree with me, I can't let that go unchallenged because it implies that actually have found an error in my proof.

And then when you post that demanded proof we'll have our moderator ban you...

This is the same Sandy Larsen who said he wasn't saying Oswald was Prayer Man...

Offline Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #2631 on: February 14, 2019, 05:53:03 PM »
What Greg and Bart are ignoring is that I have given a reason for the variation in Hosty's notes...Hosty omits the specifics of the lunch room encounter and Baker because he is trying to avoid bringing attention to the timing of the lunch room encounter and the fact Oswald was in there during the shooting...The Prayer Man people ignore this better more sophisticated explanation of Hosty's notes because they are trying to avoid the details that show they are not correctly interpreting them...There's a reason Hosty omits Baker from his original notes and it isn't because he's trying to avoid admitting Prayer Man is Oswald...Jim D, in his Mr Magoo-like blindness, totally misses how Hosty avoiding the details of the lunch room encounter mirrors exactly what Baker did in his 1st day affidavit and for the same reason...They were both staying away from exonerating details that showed Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunch room during the shots...Hosty also incriminates himself by omitting Shelley from his notes...The reason he does that is because Shelley helped Oswald out the back door and he didn't want to bring attention to him...So we have a pattern here of FBI Hosty not including names or details that expose some of the most dangerous conspiracy evidence...Kamp is dishonestly avoiding admitting that Hosty covers the part where Oswald went out front with Bill Shelley in Fritz's and Bookhout's notes by entering "Went outside to watch presidential parade"...If Kamp were more honest he would admit that, according to the corresponding pattern in all 3 reports, that had to occur several minutes after the time Prayer Man was filmed out in the portal...They ignore that the reason Hosty's notes are different is because he is trying to avoid the things that prove our version of Oswald being in the lunch room...It is highly dishonest to deliberately offer a more primitive version like Kamp does in order to avoid these clarifying details...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 06:59:42 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2632 on: February 14, 2019, 08:33:03 PM »
Friends!

Imagine there were no PrayerMan figure standing on the west side of the entranceway in the Darnell and Wiegman films. Imagine just an empty, person-less space there.

Now! Imagine further that the Hosty note comes to light. Eyebrows are raised, but the consensus line amongst seasoned researchers is, 'Okay, but Oswald was clearly lying about going out front to watch the parade. There's nowhere in that entranceway he can be! He's not in Altgens! And it's just too crowded over on the east side!'

Valid grounds for disbelieving Mr Oswald's claim? Sure.

But! That is not where we are in reality. There is a figure on the west side of that entranceway. This figure strikes many, many people as bearing a striking resemblance to Mr Oswald.



Something very simple follows from the above:

To say that Prayer Man is not Mr Oswald is to say----------by implication-----------that he lied about going "outside to watch the P. Parade".

For there's really nowhere else Mr Oswald could be that is at once "outside" and "in the building" (i.e. the roofed entranceway).

Just as there is no other viable candidate than Mr Oswald for Prayer Man, so there is no other viable candidate than Prayer Man for Mr Oswald!

And to say that Mr Oswald's claim to have been out front is a lie is to leave wholly unaccounted for the established fact that Captain Fritz and co. lied by omission about Mr Oswald's precise claim as to his whereabouts during the motorcade.

Is it not much simpler to accept the obvious implication of Captain Fritz and co.'s lie-by-omission, to wit: Captain Fritz and co. knew that Mr Oswald had a sound alibi and conspired to bury it?

Once one accepts this simple proposition, all the anomalies and absurdities go up in a puff of smoke. The thing makes sense for the first time in 55 years.

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« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:51:16 PM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2633 on: February 14, 2019, 09:04:00 PM »
Mr Lovelady in the Hughes film.



Behind him can be seen a figure in the Prayer Man spot.

I believe the figure just to Prayer Man's left is... Mr Bill Shelley.

'Out with Bill Shell[e]y in front'


Offline Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #2634 on: February 14, 2019, 09:46:36 PM »
Alan Ford has been arguing for several weeks on Moricet's page that Lovelady in the Hughes film is Carl Jones...Now he is correctly coming around to what I've been telling him, that the man in the reddish shirt with white T-shirt is Lovelady...

So if we go to Lovelady's 1964 FBI statement he said when he was over against the far right wall of the Depository entranceway (as we see here in Hughes) that Shelley and Stanton were next to him...

So by Alan's own logic here (which is what I have been trying to tell him) if Shelley is to his left then the only remaining spot for Stanton is Prayer Man...

Do you understand how that works Alan? Since you have identified Lovelady and Shelley over against the wall there, that Stanton is the only remaining person for the only one you have left - which is Prayer Man...

Thank you Mr Ford...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 09:58:36 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2635 on: February 14, 2019, 10:39:00 PM »
Mr Lovelady in the Hughes film.



Behind him can be seen a figure in the Prayer Man spot.

I believe the figure just to Prayer Man's left is... Mr Bill Shelley.

'Out with Bill Shell[e]y in front'

If these IDs of the people in the Altgens photo and Wiegman film are sound (apart, of course, from Ms Stanton, whom we know to be to Mr Frazier's left at this time)-------------



-------------then we can understand that, between Hughes and Wiegman,
A) Mr Lovelady, order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and near the centre of the stairway
B) Mr Shelley, in reaction to Mr Lovelady's movement and/or in order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and a little further east.

Prayer Man (Mr Oswald) remains in the same position from Hughes to Wiegman.

From Wiegman to Darnell, he will remain in the same spot, though his posture may well change:



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Offline Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #2636 on: February 14, 2019, 10:55:57 PM »
Alan is wildly disconnected from reality...You can see Mr Ford ignores my previous post to him that detailed the reasons why he just repeated the case I was making and repeated my evidence for it...Mr Ford ignores that he just said what I was saying using my evidence...Because Mr Ford and his entries possess no rational logic or connection to reality he didn't realize that his own post finally admitted what I was trying to tell him...That when Lovelady is over against the west wall in Hughes Lovelady described Sarah as being next to him...Alan has such a loose grasp on reality and sound argument that he failed to realize he was repeating my evidence that he refused to admit before...Look at his post...He admitted Lovelady was the man in the reddish shirt against the west wall...He admitted Shelley was to his left, so that leaves the only remaining candidate for Prayer Man to be Stanton...Kinda dumb to not realize he was finally coming around to what I have been telling him...

Ford also fails to realize that if Stanton were to Frazier's left in Altgens then we would see her obese figure in the Wiegman frame Ford compares it to...That frame is only 1/9th of a second difference from Altgens...The frame Ford shows has a woman who is obviously far too thin to be the obese Stanton, which only proves the gross incompetency this issue has been dealt with by up to now...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 12:26:51 AM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2637 on: February 14, 2019, 11:32:29 PM »
If these IDs of the people in the Altgens photo and Wiegman film are sound (apart, of course, from Ms Stanton, whom we know to be to Mr Frazier's left at this time)-------------



-------------then we can understand that, between Hughes and Wiegman,
A) Mr Lovelady, order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and near the centre of the stairway
B) Mr Shelley, in reaction to Mr Lovelady's movement and/or in order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and a little further east.

Prayer Man (Mr Oswald) remains in the same position from Hughes to Wiegman.

From Wiegman to Darnell, he will remain in the same spot, though his posture may well change:



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Now! What happens next?

Let's hand over to Mr James Jarman (HSCA interview 9.25.77):

JARMAN: Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see.
INTERVIEWER: Oh.
JARMAN: And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.


If that's Mr Lovelady near the bottom west of the steps in Darnell, then we can work out the sequence of events:

-------Officer Baker rushes past Mr Lovelady and up the steps
-------Mr Lovelady turns around to look up after him
-------He sees the police officer grabbing hold of Mr Oswald (whom Mr Lovelady notices now for the first time) and pulling him into the vestibule, shouting, 'Do you work here?'
-------Mr Lovelady misunderstands the encounter------Mr Oswald is not 'coming out the door', he's been there all along!; and all Officer Baker is doing is seeking assistance from the first man he can grab
-------Mr Truly, meanwhile, has followed Officer Baker up the steps... he offers to give the police officer the assistance he is seeking ('Yes he works here, officer, but I'm the building manager, I'll help you').

Now!

Mr Lovelady's mistaken interpretation of this exchange between Mr Oswald and Officer Baker-----------i.e. he thinks the officer has aggressively 'stopped' Mr Oswald from leaving the building and Mr Truly has stepped in to vouch for his employee------------is exactly the story that DPD will be telling the press about later this day:

Oswald was stopped by one of our officers as he tried to leave the building, but the officer, who was rushing into the building, let him go when the building manager told him Oswald worked there.

Friends, the coincidence between Mr Jarman's account and the first-day DPD line is no coincidence at all!

---------------> Mr Oswald went out to watch the Presidential Parade.
---------------> He was standing beside Mr Shelley as the President was passing.
---------------> Just after the shooting, a police officer did come running in to the 1st floor, grabbing Mr Oswald and pulling him into the vestibule.

This is the real 'lunchroom incident', and Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz all about it!

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« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 11:36:13 PM by Alan Ford »

Offline Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #2638 on: February 15, 2019, 01:00:12 AM »
On the Education Forum the bias for Prayer Man and Kamp is so strong and so pervasive that no one employs the usual critical thinking that they normally apply to all claims...

Jarman may have been translating what he heard from Lovelady about Oswald leaving but that doesn't mean the same normal scrutiny and cross examination doesn't apply...Look at the Prayer Man people...They sit back and say nothing when Kamp posts his quotation of Jarman's testimony...

They don't bother to calibrate it to the rest of what we know...It is obvious that Jarman is just repeating the same conflation of the 2nd floor lunch room encounter with the front door stop that Biffle and Holmes repeated...

Because the Education Forum just swallows anything Kamp posts without any critical scrutiny they fail to ask exactly when Lovelady witnessed this exit by Oswald...We know Truly wasn't downstairs by the time Oswald made this alleged exit...It doesn't bother these Prayer Man cultists that there's no testimony from Truly telling of this front door stop...

Kamp is a real cheater because he just posts the Jarman testimony but then stays away from any comment on it because he is exactly aware of the things I'm posting here and doesn't want to get tangled in them...

If Kamp were more truthful he would admit that Jarman is repeating hearsay over the 2nd floor lunch room encounter because that is the only place Truly could have cleared Oswald with the cop who had stopped him...Kamp knows this which is why he stays dishonestly quiet...

Kamp also steers clear of discussing that for Lovelady to witness this front door stop he would have to have come back from his trip to the rear of the Depository via the railyard...

Kamp also conspicuously avoids discussing the details of Billy Lovelady failing to mention this detailed encounter at the front entrance between Oswald and the cops...The praise-receiving researcher Bart Kamp is not asked to account for the implications of Lovelady forgetting to tell all this to the Commission or what that entails...On the Education Forum Kamp posts it and it gets gobbled-up without question by the eagerly-awaiting membership who don't seem to notice or mind that the better voices on the subject get banned when they attempt to oppose Kamp...

Kamp also pretends not to notice that Jarman repeats Mrs Reid's sighting of Oswald in his account when he says Lovelady told him Oswald had come down through the offices and down the front stairs...

What Kamp fails to put any critical analysis to is the fact the steps were pretty well covered with witnesses by this time...There were cameras and witnesses giving full coverage to the front steps and no evidence was ever given of Oswald leaving by the front door...Kamp has no problem with there being no police mention of this encounter...

Buell Frazier made clear in his 2002 interview by Gary Mack that Oswald definitely did not leave by the front door...Kamp is not asserting any detective smarts to this Jarman account because he knows him and his Prayer Man theory won't do well by it...

What is more than obvious is the cops and Lovelady did not speak of this front door stop because it did not happen the way Jarman said in his testimony...The reason for this lack of witnessing is because both Lovelady and the cops knew Oswald did not go out the front door but was assisted by Shelley out the back...In the Fritz interrogation Oswald said he went out front with Shelley because he knew he could not divulge the true exit Shelley helped him leave the Depository by...That was the rear exit...Lovelady knew this too which is why he told Jarman that BS story...

 
 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:29:46 AM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #2639 on: February 15, 2019, 02:42:58 AM »
Brian Doyle,

Putting aside your personal dislike of proponents of prayer man, what are you left with after Bart Kamps amazing discover of P. parade?
It's over dude. Pack your tent, admit you were wrong and move on to another area of JFK that is more your speed. You should congratulate Kamp on his discovery, but have you?
Are you a big enough person inside to admit you were wrong? If not, why not?

It's not actually his discovery but, that aside, what is so amazing about "Bart Kamp's discovery"? I don't get it. All I see is an expansion on what Oswald was heard to have said in one of his interviews. It was merely one of Oswald's many lies. Not a single witness placed him out in front of the building watching the motorcade pass by. Not one.  There is nothing that corroborates that particular lie. But you Prayer Man cultists have been doing a circle jerk over it

 

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