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Offline Larry Trotter

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1710 on: August 12, 2018, 02:50:20 AM »
Get a load of DiEugenio standing up for Alex Jones' free speech rights...Even though Jones posted nutty Fetzer-like claims that Sandy Hook and the Boston Bombing were staged crisis actor events Jim stands up against his being censored and banned by Facebook...Meanwhile when I posted my correct proof that Prayer Man was Stanton Jim ignored it and went after me with dirty defamation, painting me as a justly-banned nut who was trying to sneak back on and get people to post for him...And nobody points my case out to Jim to show him what a huge hypocrite he is...

I am reminded that awhile back, on another Forum, a Thread/Discussion about PrayerPersonImage identity was shut-down, and moved to a 'Pit' area that can only be accessed by members, even just for reading.
So, for some reason, this post as quoted seems to remind me of that, or a similar action, occurring that was 'suggested'
by another member of said Forum

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1710 on: August 12, 2018, 02:50:20 AM »


Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1711 on: August 12, 2018, 08:01:06 PM »
Frazier has already made his turn to look at Sarah before Couch/Darnell...We know this because we know that Lovelady & Shelley have already spoken to Calvery at the base of the steps about 3 seconds prior to Couch/Darnell...We know this because Lovelady & Shelley are already on their way up the extension in Couch/Darnell...Since Frazier has already detailed that Calvery was shouting the president has been shot on her way to the steps we know with 100% certitude that Frazier has already heard Calvery long before Couch/Darnell...In all of his statements Frazier makes clear that he turned to Sarah immediately to ask what Calvery had said (like anyone would do after hearing gunshots at a president and hearing a hysterical woman shouting he had been shot)...In his 2013 interview Frazier recounts hearing Calvery and then immediately turns to Sarah...When Frazier describes this in the interview his body language and eyes look to his right towards where Prayer Man was...

Frazier told Mack in the that very real interview from 2002, that Lovelady and Shelley were already gone, "...when these women came up and said...". 
So, it's two events, one that Smith, Lovelady and Shelley reacted to and the second that Frazier allegedly either had trouble hearing or just simply couldn't believe.
Two events, according to Frazier 2002(near the very end of Part1 of that interview).
Here's a valid question then, in what other source does he talk about this event and tell us exactly where the two Bills where at that time just like he did with Gary?

Here's another thing in that same interview at the beginning of part2.
He said during the shooting he tried to see the limo.  That's right but how could he?  Well just look at Lovelady, he managed it and is there any doubt that Billy is looking right into the limo and can see the occupants?  Frazier however, despite being taller and most likely a step above told Gary he could not see the vehicle.  He claimed that the people lining the street were blocking his view.  Now tell me, if you believe that to be true, then what chance would the shorter Stanton have if she's on on the east side of the steps?

Online Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #1712 on: August 12, 2018, 08:36:40 PM »
Frazier told Mack in the that very real interview from 2002, that Lovelady and Shelley were already gone, "...when these women came up and said...". 
So, it's two events, one that Smith, Lovelady and Shelley reacted to and the second that Frazier allegedly either had trouble hearing or just simply couldn't believe.
Two events, according to Frazier 2002(near the very end of Part1 of that interview).
Here's a valid question then, in what other source does he talk about this event and tell us exactly where the two Bills where at that time just like he did with Gary?

Here's another thing in that same interview at the beginning of part2.
He said during the shooting he tried to see the limo.  That's right but how could he?  Well just look at Lovelady, he managed it and is there any doubt that Billy is looking right into the limo and can see the occupants?  Frazier however, despite being taller and most likely a step above told Gary he could not see the vehicle.  He claimed that the people lining the street were blocking his view.  Now tell me, if you believe that to be true, then what chance would the shorter Stanton have if she's on on the east side of the steps?

We can see the timing of Calvery and those others in the Couch/Darnell film...The version that is supported by the reality we see in the film is the one that both Lovelady & Frazier testified to...They both said Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery before they left the steps and that's what we see in the film...And don't forget that same reality shows Calvery and Thornton still coming up to Frazier on the steps, so they could still have "come up and said" and that was well after Lovelady & Shelley were gone...Since we know from other Frazier testimony that Calvery ran up shouting on the way to the steps that JFK had been shot we know that Frazier has already heard this by the time period seen in Darnell...So Frazier has already turned to Sarah to ask her by what we see in Couch/Darnell...Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps exactly because they heard her shouting on the way...

You're not answering to the evidence Barry...

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1713 on: August 12, 2018, 09:25:01 PM »
The "Wiegman's run" segment last 27s and as he stops filming the Hesters, Couch and Darnell start.
Myers says 3.6s before Z313 for start of Wiegman but there's a chance he's off by one second at least(but not 4-5).
Let's call it 2.5s before Z313, runtime of 27s means Couch and Darnell start at 24-25s after Z313.

Okay now Calvery's run.
She could probably do it in around 12s but @6s after Z313 in Wiegman she's still in the same general area on Elm(her group had stepped back and pulled east but no real sign of anyone running away yet).  So start a 6s and give her another 12s to reach somewhere west of the landing where she or the other woman could be heard by not just Lovelady and Shelley but officers Smith and Baker.
So, if I'm correct, the theory is that @18s after Z313 some combination of  Lovelady, Shelley and Smith react to two women, at least one of whom was screaming and they approach her.

Smith claimed the woman said, "they're shooting at him from the bushes", not heard by either of the two Bill's, he is seen in Couch well ahead of BS/BL stalking his way to Elm St proper.  So Smith could have talked to her alone, the two Bill's come next, probably overheard some of the conversation, they then follow Smith.
How long for that conversation, 5s?

So, now we're getting close, Couch starts @ 24-25s and the event thus far has taken 23s but as we know Smith and the two Bills are seconds away from Calvery, who is now on the steps for the start of Darnell(and therefor Couch).  If she repeats the story for the two Bills it doesn't work, there's no time and she hardly has had time to tell those on the steps by the time Couch and Darnell react to Baker and start filming.

This is in no way an attempt to knock the story as a whole, I think it's golden, here's my attempt to get Frazier involved.
Women run from the horror toward a little safety at the TSBD where they work, Smith hear's them coming and heads directly for them, he meets them east of the steps and out of sight of BWF but not BL/BS, the latter two men head for the meeting and overhear part of the converstaion and the urgency of it, Smith heads for Elm, hand on holster, Shelly and Lovelady follow.  Seconds later the two women arrive on the steps and tell those there what has happened.  "Action!". In Darnell we see BWF attempting to hear them for the first time, where as others who could see the cop run up to the women and probably see one of them point that same cop to the west, have not only all tutned to look in that direction but some like Evans have already ran for the light pole to check it out.
Think about it, Why is Evans already at the lampost and Frazier still trying to work it all out?
Frazier likes to claim he had the best spot in the whole plaza, not for this event he didn't.  Positioning was the key for an early reaction to Calvery, that and/or a little added awareness.

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1714 on: August 12, 2018, 09:50:00 PM »
Fraziers' WC testimony is of little help, that's why it's not quoted that often, again Shelley and Lovelady had took off before he hears the news.
Should I even bother? OK WTH.
"Billy and them had walked down that way, I hadn't moved."
"Right before I went back[back inside the building for lunch as he said just before and after this] somebody had come and told us in a low hollering that they'd shot Kennedy.
Then I went right back in the building.".

Anyone want to claim this is an accurate telling of his involvement told 6months after the event?
Why not? Hears the knews and goes inside to eat his lunch, pretty much the same as he told Mack.
You'll note he didn't bring his sandwiches outside but sat there alone in the basement as per, deliberating his next move perhaps.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1714 on: August 12, 2018, 09:50:00 PM »


Online Brian Doyle

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #1715 on: August 12, 2018, 10:04:01 PM »
I think I've figured out something important by micro-analyzing this subject over and over...The woman labeled Peggy Burney may have spoken to Smith or some others in combination with Cavlery and Thornton and stayed behind while Calvery and Thornton ran ahead to the steps...The 3 women, Calvery, Thornton, and Burney may have ran closer to each other when they left the spectators and may have separated when they started telling people the president was shot...I think I have discovered why Lovelady & Shelley confused talking to Calvery by the concrete island because they spoke to Burney as she ran by...Some permutation of what I have described here may have happened with Smith...By the way, I am not familiar with Smith being on record as having spoken to the running women...

Watch the "stabilized nuggets" Jimmy Darnell video...The motions and timing makes Burney the much more likely candidate for this exchange and explains why Smith was the only one to hear her say "shots from the bushes"...It is because Calvery never said it, it was Burney...Even I had fallen for Burney being Calvery for a long time...And I think it was Shelley who made the same mistake saying they spoke by the concrete island...

It makes sense that the 3 women reacted in horror to the 313 shot that blasted open JFK's head and disgorged its contents in front of them by running in panic...What makes my version of this scenario more credible is the fact the timing fits precisely...What I'm trying to say is when you can attach precise timings to the seen events, and those events match perfectly with the exact time those things would have taken, then you are only confirming their real-ness...If it would have taken them 15 seconds to run the 120 feet in a panic, and the visual evidence locks-in to those precise times, that only reinforces their real-ness by dovetailing perfectly...   

No Barry - Lovelady also spoke in clear terms of speaking to Calvery at the base of the steps before leaving...And he mentioned Calvery by name...I posted his Commission testimony a few posts back...So that means two separate main witnesses repeated the same thing backed by film evidence...Frazier told the truth and described what Lovelady repeated accurately...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:16:10 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1716 on: August 12, 2018, 10:37:34 PM »
That's a fair point, the woman Smith spoke to doesn't have to be Calvery or her friend but from Occum's POV it would seem most likely, also if they were running toward safety what better sight than a cop in uniform?
Screaming woman(which had to be near the TSBD for them to hear) mentioned by both Smith and Baker for the WC.
You think Burney is the one further back and still running in Couch, that's okay I think but she's hardly on(or from what I can see, has come from) a collision course with Smith.

Again, like I mentioned with Frazier, find me another interview other than Mack where he mentions the position of BL/BS when these women come up.
For Mack, he said they had already left and for the WC it sounds the same as I just quoted above, check the testimony if you doubt me, they left, I stood still, these women came up.

Let me remind myself what Lovelady said.

Online Brian Doyle

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« Reply #1717 on: August 12, 2018, 10:41:11 PM »
I'd say the film makes it look like Burney and Smith start directly from where they met and show movements that look like they had just started getting going after talking to each other: (It is definitely Burney...She's wearing her black skirt and white blouse)

« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:44:05 PM by Brian Doyle »

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Prayer Woman
« Reply #1717 on: August 12, 2018, 10:41:11 PM »


Online Brian Doyle

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« Reply #1718 on: August 12, 2018, 10:49:16 PM »
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

ME: We know where Lovelady, Shelley, and Calvery were in relation to each other because we can see it with our own eyes in Couch/Darnell...They met at the base of the steps about 5-6 seconds prior to Couch/Darnell...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:54:48 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #1719 on: August 12, 2018, 10:57:11 PM »
We can see the timing of Calvery and those others in the Couch/Darnell film...The version that is supported by the reality we see in the film is the one that both Lovelady & Frazier testified to...They both said Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery before they left the steps...
I just pointed out what Frazier said in my last two posts with the WC transcript open in front of me.  So what testimony are you referring to where Frazier said it was before they left the steps?

^As for the Burnley/Smith interaction yes I suppose it's quite possible, not to be argumentative but it's also possible they are on opposite sides of the street.
To me it looks like(watch the very first few frames) she's stood still and hidden by the post, so I agree on that point, she slowed or stopped right there.