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Author Topic: Yet Another Bullet That the Lone-Gunman Theory Cannot Explain  (Read 4362 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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As you probably don't know, Paterni and Boring were the ones who found the two bullet fragments in the front of the limo. They found the fragments when they "inspected" the limo! Paterni was the one who handed the fragments over to FBI agent Orrin Bartlett, who in turn took them to the FBI lab and gave them to the FBI's Robert Frazier (3 H 435).

Boring did not find one the two bullet fragments in the front of the limo. Paterni found one. Thomas Mills found the other.

https://www.maryferrell.org/xdoc/11653#relPageId=5




Online Michael T. Griffith

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Boring did not find one the two bullet fragments in the front of the limo. Paterni found one. Thomas Mills found the other.

https://www.maryferrell.org/xdoc/11653#relPageId=5

That disagrees with other sources on the finding of the two fragments, but I think it's most likely accurate, and it is further confirmation that Mills and Martinell searched the limo.

It doesn't really change anything. The autopsy doctors were frantically trying to find a whole bullet, but they had no need for anymore bullet fragments. So it makes complete sense that Paterni took the two fragments and gave them to the FBI and that Mills and Martinell took the two skull fragments and the bullet to the autopsy and gave them to Dr. Young.

It's worth repeating that Dr. Young mentioned the finding of the bullet in his 11/23/63 "What Price a Rose?" handwritten essay, in his December 2000 letter to President Ford, and in his third 2001 oral history interview.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:52:42 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online John Corbett

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Do you ever stop posting such transparently dishonest, ridiculous dodges?

Quoting the most relevant portion of a four-page source is not quoting "out of context." I doubt that you even know what that term actually means. What "context" could change the obvious meaning of Agent Taylor's statement that "representatives from Dr. Burkley's office at the White House, William Martinell and Thomas Mills, inspected SS-100-X"? Huh? What? Tell us. Do you think Taylor wrote elsewhere in his report that he was only kidding when he said Mills and Martinell inspected the limo?!

It is just juvenile ignorance and silliness to imply that my quote from Taylor's statement is somehow suspect because I "left out a chunk of the affidavit." Every time anyone quotes a paragraph from a book, they are "leaving out a chunk of the book."

Oh, and "inspected" is "not the same" as "searched"?! Really?! Sheesh, just how silly and foolish can you get? I mean, really, this is the kind idiotic dodging you'd expect from a teenager who couldn't bring himself to acknowledge something he didn't want to admit.

FYI, the terms "inspected," "examined," and "searched" are used interchangeably in zillions of investigative documents when referring to things such cars, rooms, areas, drawers, compartments, etc. Indeed, Taylor said that Secret Service agents Paterni and Boring also "inspected" the limo, and he said this in the same paragraph and sentence as the one I quoted! The ellipses I inserted replaced this statement. Let's read:

At 10:10 p.m., Deputy Chief Paterni, ASAIC Boring, and representatives from Dr. Burkley's office at the White House, William Martinell and Thomas Mills, inspected SS-100-X.

You can confirm this yourself by reading page 2 of Taylor's report, which you can find here:

https://www.scribd.com/document/16573650/TaylorAff

As you probably don't know, Paterni and Boring were the ones who found the two bullet fragments in the front of the limo. They found the fragments when they "inspected" the limo! Paterni was the one who handed the fragments over to FBI agent Orrin Bartlett, who in turn took them to the FBI lab and gave them to the FBI's Robert Frazier (3 H 435).

Paterni and Boring never claimed to find skull fragments and a misshapen bullet in the limo, because they didn't. Mills and Martinell found them. Paterni turned over the items that he found, i.e., the two bullet fragments, to the FBI, while Mills and Martinell took the items that they found, i.e., the skull fragments and the deformed bullet, to the autopsy, as they were instructed to do.

You have provided no documentation that supports your remarkable claim that Mills and Martinell found the skull fragments and deformed bullet. In fact, it makes no sense. If all the Secret Service agents found was the fragmented bullet, why would they bother calling Bethesda about that since they turned those fragments to the FBI. Are we supposed to believe they call Dr. Young at Bethesda as said, "We searched the limo but all we could find was a fragmented bullet on the floor. Why don't you send a couple guys over to find out if we missed anything.". Of course that is a silly take. The only reason for the Secret Service to contact the autopsy team at Bethesda would be if they were the ones who had already found the bone fragments. Your claim that Mills and Martinell found both the bone fragments and a whole bullet are your inventions.
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LOL! Is this a serious question? Really? "Why," you ask? Umm, because the two Navy NCOs were the ones who found the bullet and the skull fragments, because they were under orders to bring to the autopsy what they found in the limo, and because they were acting on orders given by a Navy O-6 who was the chief aide to the White House doctor, the chief aide to the personal physician of the President of the United States! Gee, ya think?!

A perfect example of circular reasoning. Your claim that the NCOs found the bullet and bone fragments is supported by your claim that they were the ones who searched the limo for evidence and that claim is supported by your claim that they were the ones that found the bullet and fragments.
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BTW, what happened to your nonsensical argument that the Secret Service never would have let Mills and Martinell search the limo? Huh?

Search and inspect are not synonyms. The latter could be done with just a casual look at the limo. The former implies a more thorough look through limo. It should be noted that Taylor's affidavit was made in 1976. He said it is based on personal observations AND discussions with the other agents. We don't know how much he personally observed and how much had been told to him. His affidavit says this happened on November 22, 1973 which is obviously a typo but let's not quibble.

Finally, why do you keep using the dishonest term "fragmented bullet" to describe the two bullet fragments found in the front of the limo, when those fragments constituted less than half of the mass of a bullet?  [/quote]

Now who's quibbling.
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CE 567 weighed 41.5 grains. CE 569 weighed 21 grains. The two fragments combined weighed only 62.5 grains. But, the average rifle bullet weighs between 150 and 180 grains, and a WCC 6.5 mm FMJ bullet weighs 160.8 grains.

In other words, the two bullet fragments found in the front of the limo constituted only 39% of the mass of the kind of bullet that Oswald allegedly used, and constituted no more than 42% and as little as 35% of the mass of an average rifle bullet.

Tell us why that matters.

The bottom line is that the document you provided are the recollections of Taylor made in 1976. We don't know how much of it is based on his personal observations and how much is made from what he had been told by others since he stated both as sources. He wasn't involved in the search for and recovery of evidence. His job was to provide security. He tells us only that the NCOs inspected the limo, not that they did a thorough search of it for evidence. That had already been done by other Secret Service agents. The only reason for them to have called Bethesda in the first place is that the bone fragments had already been found. At no time does Taylor tell us that Mills and Martinell were the ones who found the bone fragments and a bullet. There is no record of Mills or Martinell ever saying they searched the limo and found the bone fragments and a bullet. These are all assumptions you have made based on Young's assumption that the NCOs had returned with a bullet in addition to the bone fragments. Nobody at Bethesda, other than Young, ever stated a bullet had been delivered to the autopsy team at Bethesda.

This is what you constantly do. You take a morsel of truth and then weave fantastic, sinister tales based on the flimsiest of evidence to support your silly beliefs that there was a massive cover-up regarding the assassination of JFK. You've been doing this for 35 years and it hasn't amounted to a hill of beans and you know it. You've never proven JFK died as a result of a conspiracy and you never will. 35 years of futility hasn't discouraged you at all. You will continue your great snipe hunt until your dying days and none of it will ever matter.

Online John Corbett

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Boring did not find one the two bullet fragments in the front of the limo. Paterni found one. Thomas Mills found the other.

https://www.maryferrell.org/xdoc/11653#relPageId=5

I had already posted my previous reply before reading this post. Although I find it surprising that the Secret Service would allow a Navy corpsman to assist in the search of the limo, apparently that had been done. However, the document only states that Mills had found a fragment, not a whole bullet. It further states that Mills turned that fragment over to Special Agent Orrin Bartlett. He did not keep it.

While I'm sure MTG will trumpet this as further support for his claim that Mills returned to Bethesda with a whole bullet, it actually refutes it. For starters the document makes no mention of a whole bullet having been recovered by Mills or anybody else. Since Mills turned the bullet fragment over to Bartlett, why would he have kept a whole bullet he found and not told any of the Secret Service or FBI agents about it?

In short, there is no evidence a whole bullet was recovered during a search of the limo at the White House garage and therefore no bullet that the LNs need to explain which is the premise of this thread.

Offline Tim Nickerson

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That disagrees with other sources on the finding of the two fragments, but I think it's most likely accurate, and it is further confirmation that Mills and Martinell searched the limo.

It doesn't really change anything. The autopsy doctors were frantically trying to find a whole bullet, but they had no need for anymore bullet fragments. So it makes complete sense that Paterni took the two fragments and gave them to the FBI and that Mills and Martinell took the two skull fragments and the bullet to the autopsy and gave them to Dr. Young.

It's worth repeating that Dr. Young mentioned the finding of the bullet in his 11/23/63 "What Price a Rose?" handwritten essay, in his December 2000 letter to President Ford, and in his third 2001 oral history interview.

If the bullet was found in the Queen Mary, how is that confirmation that Martinelli searched the limo? Dr Young's claim 37 years after that assassination that Mills and Martinelli brought a bullet to him that they found in the Queen Mary is not believable at all. There is no support for his claim whatsoever. Reasonable people will generously see it as a faulty recollection.

Online John Corbett

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That disagrees with other sources on the finding of the two fragments, but I think it's most likely accurate, and it is further confirmation that Mills and Martinell searched the limo.

It doesn't really change anything. The autopsy doctors were frantically trying to find a whole bullet, but they had no need for anymore bullet fragments. So it makes complete sense that Paterni took the two fragments and gave them to the FBI and that Mills and Martinell took the two skull fragments and the bullet to the autopsy and gave them to Dr. Young.

Really? It makes sense to you that Mills turned the fragment he found over to the FBI but kept a whole bullet and took it back with him to Bethesda. Why wouldn't he have turned that bullet over to the FBI as well?
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It's worth repeating that Dr. Young mentioned the finding of the bullet in his 11/23/63 "What Price a Rose?" handwritten essay, in his December 2000 letter to President Ford, and in his third 2001 oral history interview.

You have never documented that Young wrote in his 11/23/63 essay that a whole bullet had been returned to Bethesda. The link to the full text of that essay makes no mention of such a bullet.

Online John Corbett

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If the bullet was found in the Queen Mary, how is that confirmation that Martinelli searched the limo? Dr Young's claim 37 years after that assassination that Mills and Martinelli brought a bullet to him that they found in the Queen Mary is not believable at all. There is no support for his claim whatsoever. Reasonable people will generously see it as a faulty recollection.

I can understand Young confusing the Queen Mary with JFK's limo. There were times during JFK's presidency when the Queen Mary was used instead of the Lincoln that was his primary limo. His recollections about a bullet having been recovered from either limo aren't credible at all.

BTW, thank you for posting the document regarding Mills finding the bullet fragment in JFK's limo, even though it showed one of my beliefs was wrong. I'm always glad to learn something I had not known before.

One other note. There were actually two Queen Mary limos that had been used interchangeably during Ike's administration and it is not ever certain which of the two had been in the motorcade in Dallas.
« Last Edit: Today at 03:54:48 PM by John Corbett »