Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[John Corbett]

MT Thanks for your comment.

"The radial nerve covers the extensor muscles of the hand. Holding the hat requires the flexors, not the extensors. The radial nerve transection, then, wouldn't be expected to prevent Connally from continuing to hold the hat."--MT

The WC said something along those lines too. Maybe so.

Cyril Wecht had the opposite opinion, as I cited above.

My layman's view is the impact and injury to the wrist would have dislodged Gov. JBC's grip from the hat, and likely did.

I rather suspect it was Texas Lore, that "and the Gov. was still holding onto to his Stetson hat." A sign of defiance and strength, in the face of dire adversity.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.

We don't even need medical experts for this one. We can see JBC still holding his Stetson several seconds after he was shot. Obviously his wounds did not prevent him from hanging on to his hat.

Case Closed.

[John Corbett]

We know that JBC continued to press his right forearm against his chest all the way to Parkland because he said he felt no pain until he got to Parkland. [We know that the pleural cavity was punctured so if he had not occluded the wound in his chest his lung would have collapsed.  A collapsed lung is excruciatingly painful.  That is exactly what he felt when he got out of the car at Parkland - excruciating pain]. JBC said he did not know that his forearm was struck until waking up in hospital after his wounds were treated. So the forearm wound was not painful.   

So, based on the evidence, there is no reason to believe that he could not have held onto his stetson all the way to Parkland Hospital.

The SBT is in conflict with several bodies of mutually consistent evidence.  If one follows the evidence:  1. JFK was struck by the first bullet; 2. JBC was struck in the back by the second, which occurred closer in time to the third than the first; and 3.  the third and last bullet struck JFK in the head.

Greer said he turned around on the second shot - almost simultaneously with it - to see JBC falling back onto Nellie. He is finishing that turn at z281:


Hickey said he was looking at JFK for both the second and third shots, which were close together.  We can see from Altgens #6 at z255 that he is still turned facing rearward (ie. at z255 he has yet to turn forward and hear the second shot).

In that sequence of events, JBC was hit by the second shot some time after z255 and before z281. That seems to fit all the evidence, including the abundant evidence that JFK reacted visibly to the first shot, that JBC turned around to check on JFK (the turn to the rear from z230-270) and then he was struck by the second bullet in the back.   At that point he was turned with his right arm raised exposing his armpit to the SN, so that the bullet actually hit the right armpit.  His right wrist was covering the exit location in his chest so the bullet struck the right radius.

If the WC had followed the evidence, they would have realized that the shot sequence also fits with the evidence that all shots were fired from the 6th floor sniper's nest by a single shooter.

Your theory has not improved with age. It makes no more sense now than when you were peddling it on John McAdams' forum almost 20 years ago. Anyone who thinks JBC was not hit until after Z225 can't be looking at frames Z220-255 objectively. JBC's first reaction came when he suddenly flipped his right arm up and down beginning at Z226 and lasting about a half second. Do you think he flipped his arm up and down in anticipation of being shot a few seconds later? Following his arm flip, he immediately turns and dips to his right before twisting further to his right until he was facing JFK.

There's only one explanation that fits the Z-film throughout the shooting sequence. There was an early missed shot. My analysis tells me that shot was fired at or about Z151, although I will concede the evidence for that is not absolute proof. That is followed by Connally beginning to turn toward his right in reaction to a shot he judged to be behind him and to his right. Some have theorized the missed shot occurred before Zapruder resumed filming but that requires a very slow reaction not only from JBC but Rosemary Willis as well.

The next bullet was fired around Z220, passing through both men at or about z222. At Z224 we see JBC's jacket bulge out. We also see JFK's right hand that he had just begun lowering before he went behind the sign. As we move forward to Z225 we see JFK's hand still moving down. At Z226 we see JFK suddenly reverse the motion of his right as he begins to bring both hands up in front of his throat. In perfect unison, JBC also suddenly and rapidly begins to flip his injured right arm upwards. The simultaneous upward movement of these two men is to me the most convincing evidence of the single bullet theory. There's no way I will ever believe it is a coincidence that both men moved their arms upward at exactly the same frame if they were not reacting to the same stimulus. For those who don't believe JBC was hit until several seconds later, what do they think could have caused JBC's rapid up and down arm movement at Z226?

[Andrew Mason]

Your theory has not improved with age. It makes no more sense now than when you were peddling it on John McAdams' forum almost 20 years ago. Anyone who thinks JBC was not hit until after Z225 can't be looking at frames Z220-255 objectively.

What is your standard of objectivity? You seem to ignore the problems with: the hand of JFK covering the exit path from the neck; that there is no evidence of impact or damage or blood; that there is nothing occluding the exit wound in the chest to prevent a collapsed lung which JBC did not experience until he reached Parkland; that there is no right to left path from the SN through JFK that goes to JBC's right side; that there is no path though JBC's torso that would explain the wrist wound; and that the shot pattern recalled by the vast majority of witnesses means there was only one shot before the midpoint and that midpoint is well after z225.

In any event, my point was that the SBT conflicts with large bodies of mutually consistent evidence.  That is not even debatable - it is a matter of record.  You just happen to think that all the witnesses who put the first shot well after z186 (Betzner, Croft, occupants of  VP car, VP security car, persons along Elm St. where JFK's car was passing or had just passed when the first shot was heard), that JFK reacted visibly to it (20+ witnesses), and that the last two shots were closer together (40+ witnesses), were all wrong.  Is that being objective?

JBC's first reaction came when he suddenly flipped his right arm up and down beginning at Z226 and lasting about a half second. Do you think he flipped his arm up and down in anticipation of being shot a few seconds later? Following his arm flip, he immediately turns and dips to his right before twisting further to his right until he was facing JFK.

No. I suggest that he moved his arm because he was preparing to do the turn to the rear that he then performs.  He said he turned to the rear to see JFK after hearing the first shot but before being hit in the back.  He wasn't going to turn rearward with his arm down on his lap.  He makes no attempt to see JFK prior to that turn which begins at about z228.

There's only one explanation that fits the Z-film throughout the shooting sequence. There was an early missed shot. My analysis tells me that shot was fired at or about Z151, although I will concede the evidence for that is not absolute proof. That is followed by Connally beginning to turn toward his right in reaction to a shot he judged to be behind him and to his right. Some have theorized the missed shot occurred before Zapruder resumed filming but that requires a very slow reaction not only from JBC but Rosemary Willis as well.

So why does Rosemary turn suddenly back toward the TSBD at z202-206:


Why would Betzner say his z186 photo was just before the first shot?  Why would the occupants of the VP car say the first shot was just after they completed the turn and were going down Elm St. (it is almost finished the turn when last seen at z180). Why would occupants of the VP security car say that the first shot was as they were almost finished the turn and were parallel to the TSBD?  Why would Mrs. Cabell say the first shot occurred when their car had entered the intersection?

You say there is only one explanation for the behaviour we see after z151.   Why would Mary Woodward say that JFK's turn and wave to her group after they shouted to them (that being the last such acknowledgement that he made) was before the first horrible ear-shattering noise? She heard three distinct shots, with the last two close together.

There's no way I will ever believe it is a coincidence that both men moved their arms upward at exactly the same frame if they were not reacting to the same stimulus. For those who don't believe JBC was hit until several seconds later, what do they think could have caused JBC's rapid up and down arm movement at Z226?

It is not a coincidence. They are both reacting to the same thing: the first shot.  JFK has already begun reacting behind the Stemmons sign as we see from his position in z224 and 225 so his movements at z226 are not his first.  JBC began to react at about z226-228.

[Mitch Todd]

MT Thanks for your comment.

"The radial nerve covers the extensor muscles of the hand. Holding the hat requires the flexors, not the extensors. The radial nerve transection, then, wouldn't be expected to prevent Connally from continuing to hold the hat."--MT

The WC said something along those lines too. Maybe so.

Cyril Wecht had the opposite opinion, as I cited above.

My layman's view is the impact and injury to the wrist would have dislodged Gov. JBC's grip from the hat, and likely did.

I rather suspect it was Texas Lore, that "and the Gov. was still holding onto to his Stetson hat." A sign of defiance and strength, in the face of dire adversity.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.

BC: Cyril Wecht had the opposite opinion, as I cited above.
No matter what Wecht says, the functions of the radial nerve are well understood and can be found in any anatomy and physiology textbook. If Wecht differs, that may just be a case of hubris on his part.

[Benjamin Cole]

MT:

Thanks for your comments.

It could be hubris, or more gently, an informed but incorrect opinion on Cyril Wecht's part.

Wecht has credentials on this topic far exceeding mine, so I am loath to contradict Wecht. I lean to Wecht's explanation.

My layman's opinion is Gov JBC could not have held his right-hand grip on the Stetson after being shot through the dorsal side of the right wrist by the large and heavy slug, issued from an M-C.

The M-C, and related Western Cartridge ammo, is right on the borderline of what is considered a high-powered rifle (or carbine if you want to get technical).

The average muzzle velocity of the Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano ammunition (CE-399) fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was approximately 2,165 feet per second (fps).

The slug might have slowed down by the time it struck JBC's wrist, if we assume it passed through JBC's chest first.

Curiously, the WC held that the Western Cartridge slug "tumbled" inside of JBC's wrist, causing even more damage than if it had tunneled through. Ouch!

Like I said, I am just a layman, but...really? JBC held onto the Stetson even after CE-399 "tumbled" through his wrist?

Another side question: After the Western Cartridge slug passed through JBC's wrist, then it burrowed into JBC left thigh, by the WC account.

After that, the slug from the thigh should have been retrieved by a nurse or attendant, and put into an envelope. All hospitals, even then, saved bullets as standard procedure, and all gunshots had to be reported to local police, for good and obvious reasons.

I would expect that in such a high-profile murder and attempted murder case, the slug from JBC's thigh would, of course, be placed into an envelope and marked by a nurse or attendant as such. This is really basic. I cannot imagine these procedures were not followed.

Yet the WC holds that CE-399 was found several floors below the JBC operating room, either on the floor, or near or underneath a gurney, near an elevator, by Parkland employee Darryl Tomlinson.

Huh?

That has always struck me as curious. I will probably post on this soon.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.

[John Corbett]

What is your standard of objectivity?

You let the evidence drive your beliefs. You don't try to bend the evidence to fit your beliefs.

You seem to ignore the problems with: the hand of JFK covering the exit path from the neck;

Just how did you come to that conclusion?

that there is no evidence of impact or damage or blood; that there is nothing occluding the exit wound in the chest to prevent a collapsed lung which JBC did not experience until he reached Parkland;

Do you think two seconds would make much difference to whether his lung didn't collapse until he got to Parkland?

that there is no right to left path from the SN through JFK that goes to JBC's right side;

You can determine that from the two dimensional Z-film?

that there is no path though JBC's torso that would explain the wrist wound; and that the shot pattern recalled by the vast majority of witnesses means there was only one shot before the midpoint and that midpoint is well after z225.

Oh, goody. We have someone else who puts absolute faith in witness recollections.

In any event, my point was that the SBT conflicts with large bodies of mutually consistent evidence.

Not really.

That is not even debatable

Would you care to debate that?

it is a matter of record.

What record would that be?

 
You just happen to think that all the witnesses who put the first shot well after z186 (Betzner, Croft, occupants of  VP car, VP security car, persons along Elm St. where JFK's car was passing or had just passed when the first shot was heard), that JFK reacted visibly to it (20+ witnesses), and that the last two shots were closer together (40+ witnesses), were all wrong.  Is that being objective?

Yes, because another group of witnesses remember it differently. and the Z-film supports them. JBC said he turned to look over his right shoulder when he heard the first shot. He did that at Z164. Then there was Rosemary Willis who quit running after the limo and stopped running and turned back to look in the direction of the TSBD. She began that in the early Z170s. I don't put my faith in witnesses based on whether or not they tell a story I choose to believe. I believe the witnesses that can be corroborated. For example, SS Agent Bennett said he was scanning the crowd to the right when he heard the first shot. He then turned to look at JFK and SAW the second shot strike him below his right shoulder. Bennett wrote that in his notes on the flight back to Washington. That is significant because JFK was on his back the whole time he was at Parkland and the only way Bennett could have known about the back wound was if he saw it strike JFK.

No. I suggest that he moved his arm because he was preparing to do the turn to the rear that he then performs. He said he turned to the rear to see JFK after hearing the first shot but before being hit in the back.  He wasn't going to turn rearward with his arm down on his lap.  He makes no attempt to see JFK prior to that turn which begins at about z228.

Go back and look at the Z=film. Tell me what JBC does starting at Z164.

So why does Rosemary turn suddenly back toward the TSBD at z202-206:

Rosemary Willis did not suddenly turn back toward the TSBD in the 200s. She was running with the limo when she heard the first shot. She couldn't be expected to stop on a dime. She first slowed to a stop and then looked back. She started slowing in the Z170s.

Why would Betzner say his z186 photo was just before the first shot?
{/quote]
You'd have to ask Betzner.

 
Why would the occupants of the VP car say the first shot was just after they completed the turn and were going down Elm St.

WOW! There's a precise description.

(it is almost finished the turn when last seen at z180). Why would occupants of the VP security car say that the first shot was as they were almost finished the turn and were parallel to the TSBD?  Why would Mrs. Cabell say the first shot occurred when their car had entered the intersection?

You keep cherry picking the witnesses who support what you choose to believe. I choose to believe the witnesses who can be corroborated by the Z-film.

You say there is only one explanation for the behaviour we see after z151.

I don't remember saying that. I said it is my belief that the jiggle at Z158 was likely caused by a shot at Z151. I have acknowledged that the jiggle is not proof positive. Coupled with JBC's turn which began at Z164, it seems probable to me that is when the first shot was fired. Some have argued for a much earlier shot but that requires a very slow reaction by JBC. You would have us believe the shot came after JBC started to turn to look over his right shoulder.

Why would Mary Woodward say that JFK's turn and wave to her group after they shouted to them (that being the last such acknowledgement that he made) was before the first horrible ear-shattering noise? She heard three distinct shots, with the last two close together.

What evidence do you have to corroborate Mary Woodward?
The weakest form of evidence I have seen in the 35 years I have debated this subject online are statements that begin "So-and-so said...". Just because a witness says something doesn't establish it as fact. Witnesses often get things wrong. Often they get very important things wrong.

It is not a coincidence. They are both reacting to the same thing: the first shot.  JFK has already begun reacting behind the Stemmons sign as we see from his position in z224 and 225 so his movements at z226 are not his first.  JBC began to react at about z226-228.

JFK's hand was still moving down at Z225. His arms didn't start up until Z226, the same frame JBC flipped his injured right arm upward.