The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

[Michael T. Griffith]

It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did. See Figure 4 in John Hunt's superb article "Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory":

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Hunt points out that the Discovery Channel SBT test proves that even if the bullet that hit Connally's rib hit it traveling sideways, this would still have caused much more deformation than we see in CE 399:

S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n attached a lot of weight to the conclusion that a yawing bullet would
shed enough kinetic energy such that it struck Connally’s rib only slightly above its own
sideways impact deformation velocity. Unfortunately for S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n, even
injecting the Magic Bullet with theoretical steroids can not rehabilitate the SBT, for the
Discovery Channel “Single Bullet” did impact the “Connally” trunk while severely yawed
and was still grossly deformed upon impact with the rib.

Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:

The fact is that the bullet that most closely duplicated the Connally wounding in the
Biophysics goat tests look just like the Discovery Channel–smashed. And that bullet
struck the goat rib a glancing blow.

Figure 7 in Hunt's article shows CE 399 with two views of the goat-test bullet.

Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.

I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."

Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:

https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c

Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:

With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)

[Michael T. Griffith]

Just bumping the information below because it is further proof that the SBT is fiction, and because it provides another example of a pro-WC thread that has ended up presenting facts that WC apologists cannot explain.

It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did. See Figure 4 in John Hunt's superb article "Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory":

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Hunt points out that the Discovery Channel SBT test proves that even if the bullet that hit Connally's rib hit it traveling sideways, this would still have caused much more deformation than we see in CE 399:

S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n attached a lot of weight to the conclusion that a yawing bullet would
shed enough kinetic energy such that it struck Connally’s rib only slightly above its own
sideways impact deformation velocity. Unfortunately for S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n, even
injecting the Magic Bullet with theoretical steroids can not rehabilitate the SBT, for the
Discovery Channel “Single Bullet” did impact the “Connally” trunk while severely yawed
and was still grossly deformed upon impact with the rib.

Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:

The fact is that the bullet that most closely duplicated the Connally wounding in the
Biophysics goat tests look just like the Discovery Channel–smashed. And that bullet
struck the goat rib a glancing blow.

Figure 7 in Hunt's article shows CE 399 with two views of the goat-test bullet.

Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.

I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."

Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:

https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c

Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:

With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)

[Tim Nickerson]

It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did.

The bullet in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test struck two ribs, not just one.

Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:

The bullet struck the goat rib at a higher velocity than the bullet strike on Connally's rib.

Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.

I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."

Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:

https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c

Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:

With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)

"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472

[Michael T. Griffith]

The bullet in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test struck two ribs, not just one.

One, yes, but the Discovery Channel bullet did not smash 5 inches of rib bone, even though it hit two rib bones. You didn't bother to read Hunt's article, did you?

Two, CE 399 supposedly smashed 5 inches of rib bone and supposedly then smashed the radius bone, one of the densest bones in the body. Yet, it emerged visibly less damaged than the Discovery Channel bullet.

The bullet struck the goat rib at a higher velocity than the bullet strike on Connally's rib.

The velocity was not higher enough to make any substantive difference. Did you miss Dr. Wecht's point that CE 399's velocity would have only been reduced by about 10% after it allegedly exited JFK's throat? Plus, in the 1967 CBS SBT test, the FMJ bullets passed through 12 inches of ballistics gelatin before hitting cadaver wrist bones, and not one of them had enough energy to penetrate the simulated thigh--and in fact several of them failed to leave the cadaver wrist.

Why do you keep ignoring these facts? Do you get some sort of emotional comfort from believing in the SBT? Sorry, but sooner or later you're going to have to face that fact that every SBT wound ballistics test ever done has invalidated the SBT. You're also going to have to face that fact that JFK's tie alone--i.e., the fact that there was no hole through it--self-evidently destroys the SBT.

"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472

I can't believe you didn't recognize the specious nature of S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's argument here. Do you really believe that cotton wadding compressed by a bullet is denser than (1) three layers of human skin (the back and front of JFK's neck and Connally's back) and (2) at least 6 inches of muscle tissue (4 inches in JFK's neck and at least 2 inches between Connally's back wound and his fifth rib)? Do you really? Surely deep down you know this is utter nonsense. But S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n has to make this erroneous assumption because he admits that the two bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged more deformed than CE 399.

None other than Dr. Martin Fackler has observed that one layer of human skin has the approximate resistance strength of 4 inches of muscle tissue (https://www.patspeer.com/jahs-chapter-19). This means that three layers of human skin have the resistance strength of 12 inches of muscle tissue, which means that CE 399 would have had to pass through the equivalent of 18 inches of muscle tissue before it even hit the wrist (three layers of skin = 12 inches of muscle tissue, plus at least 6 inches of muscle tissue in JFK's neck and Connally's back). Do you really, deep down, believe that bullet-compressed cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test was denser than 18 inches of muscle tissue? Do you really?

And notice that S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n says nothing about Dr. Wecht's point regarding the goat-carcass bullet in the WC's SBT test. The bullet's velocity was virtually the same as CE 399's velocity would have been after allegedly exiting JFK's neck, because CE 399's velocity would have only been reduced by about 10% after supposedly exiting the neck. Furthermore, the goat-carcass bullet did less damage than CE 399 supposedly did in Connally's chest, yet it still emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.

Clearly, you did not bother to read Hunt's article. He addresses S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's many flawed arguments and shifting assumptions. Here's the link to Hunt's article again:

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the greatest forensic pathologists of the 20th century, who supervised over 10,000 gunshot-wound autopsies, noted that human skin is tough, elastic, and resistant, and that this was one of the reasons he did not buy the SBT:

I cannot accept the premise that this bullet [CE 399] thrashed around in all that bony tissue
and lost only 1.4 to 2.4 grains of its original weight. I cannot believe, either, that this bullet
is going to emerge . . . with its lands and grooves intact.

Mr. Specter and the Commission have asked too much from this bullet. You must remember
that next to bone, the skin offers offers the greatest resistance to a bullet in its course
through the body than any other kind of tissue. The energy of the bullet is sometimes so
spent that it can't quite get out through the final layer of skin, and it comes to rest just
beneath the outside layer of skin. If it does get through the skin, it may not
have enough energy to penetrate even an undershirt or a light cotton blouse. . . .

This single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven layers
of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers of tough
human skin, this bullet [CE 399] passed through other layers of soft tissue; and
then these shattered bones!

I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what Mr. Specter and the Commission
have demanded of it; and I don't think they have really stopped to think out carefully what
they have asked of this bullet for the simple reason that they still do not understand the
resistant nature of human skin to bullets. (Where Death Delights, pp. 62-63)

[Tom Graves]

Clearly, you did not bother to read Hunt's article. He addresses S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's many flawed arguments and shifting assumptions. Here's the link to Hunt's article again:

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the greatest forensic pathologists of the 20th century, who supervised over 10,000 gunshot-wound autopsies, noted that human skin is tough, elastic, and resistant, and that this was one of the reasons he did not buy the SBT:

I cannot accept the premise that this bullet [CE 399] thrashed around in all that bony tissue
and lost only 1.4 to 2.4 grains of its original weight. I cannot believe, either, that this bullet
is going to emerge . . . with its lands and grooves intact.

Mr. Specter and the Commission have asked too much from this bullet. You must remember
that next to bone, the skin offers the greatest resistance to a bullet in its course
through the body than any other kind of tissue. The energy of the bullet is sometimes so
spent that it can't quite get out through the final layer of skin, and it comes to rest just
beneath the outside layer of skin. If it does get through the skin, it may not
have enough energy to penetrate even an undershirt or a light cotton blouse. . . .

This single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven layers
of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers of tough
human skin, this bullet [CE 399] passed through other layers of soft tissue; and
then these shattered bones!

I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what Mr. Specter and the Commission
have demanded of it; and I don't think they have really stopped to think out carefully what
they have asked of this bullet for the simple reason that they still do not understand the
resistant nature of human skin to bullets. (Where Death Delights, pp. 62-63)

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Did John Hunt pass away before he could watch Luke and Mike Haag prove in the 2013 PBS NOVA documentary, "Cold Case JFK," that that kind of bullet can penetrate 36 inches of pine wood without being deformed, and that it has a tendency to start yawing / tumbling when it exits something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck?

-- Tom

[Michael T. Griffith]

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Did John Hunt pass away before he could watch Luke and Mike Haag prove in the 2013 PBS NOVA documentary, "Cold Case JFK," that that kind of bullet can penetrate 36 inches of pine wood without being deformed, and that it has a tendency to start yawing / tumbling when it exits something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck?

-- Tom

So you're still assuming that a bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits, even though we know the tie had no hole through it? Ignoring hard physical evidence that destroys the SBT will not make that evidence go away. This is called self-delusion and denial.

The Haags??? You're citing the Haags??? The Haags are quacks when it comes to the JFK case. They clearly failed to do their homework. Their stuff was debunked years ago. Dr. Gary Aguilar discusses just a couple of the problems with the junk science behind the Haags' SBT research:

To buck up the controversial SBT, Lucien Haag “proved” that the bullet that struck Governor Connally had passed through JFK first. His evidence? Haag said that the missile didn’t leave a small, puncture-type wound in the Governor’s back, like a typical entrance wound. Instead, it left an oval, 3-cm long, “yawed” entry wound, the full length of Commission Exhibit, #399, the so-called “magic bullet.” The ovality of that back wound was forensic proof, Haag asserted, that the bullet had been destabilized by passing through JFK and was traveling sideways, not point forward, when it hit Connally’s back. As we pointed out, this particular myth has long been debunked. Connally’s back wound was no more oval than JFK’s skull wound, and no one has ever argued JFK’s fatal missile had been destabilized and was yawing when it took the President’s life. (https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/nova-s-cold-case-jfk-junk-science-pbs)

The Haags should have known that Dr. Shaw said Connally's back wound was 1.5 cm wide, the same width as JFK's head wound. The 3-cm size was the size of the wound after Shaw debrided and cleaned it, as Shaw himself explained. This is JFK 101 stuff, and the Haags couldn't even get this simple stuff right. They used the misleading 3-cm size to support their assumption that the bullet that allegedly exited JFK's throat was traveling sideways when it hit Connally, even though Dr. Shaw said the bullet created a narrow wound track through Connally's chest. How does a bullet traveling sideways create a 1.5-cm wide entry wound and a narrow wound track through a torso? And on and on we could go.

More reading on the Haags' junk science:

https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/AguilarWechtAFTA2016.pdf

https://share.google/nZYCiaroTEpjo1c5h

Isn't it curious that in every other SBT wound ballistics test, FMJ bullets that did even just some of the damage attributed to CE 399 emerged more deformed than CE 399? Don't you find that curious?

BTW, can you tell where in their writings the Haags address the fact that JFK's tie had no hole through it, proving that no bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits? Where do they address the fact that the shirt slits had no fabric missing from them and no metallic traces around them, that one of the Parkland nurses confirmed that nurses made the slits, that the slits look nothing like any of the other clothing exit holes in JFK and Connally's clothing, and that Dr. Carrico confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar and tie?

[Tom Graves]

[...]

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Please tell us, again, how many bad guys you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the planting of false evidence, the getting-away, the altering of photos, films, and x-rays, and the all-important (and evidently continuing!!!) cover up?

Just "20 to 30"?

Really?

Were they multi-tasking like crazy?

Also, please answer this question:

Does Vladimir Putin pay you, or do you do it for free?

-- Tom

[Michael T. Griffith]

Bumping this reply because Tom Graves ignored it and once again responded with his phony strawman questions about how many people were involved in the plot and cover-up.

So you're still assuming that a bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits, even though we know the tie had no hole through it? Ignoring hard physical evidence that destroys the SBT will not make that evidence go away. This is called self-delusion and denial.

The Haags??? You're citing the Haags??? The Haags are quacks when it comes to the JFK case. They clearly failed to do their homework. Their stuff was debunked years ago. Dr. Gary Aguilar discusses just a couple of the problems with the junk science behind the Haags' SBT research:

To buck up the controversial SBT, Lucien Haag “proved” that the bullet that struck Governor Connally had passed through JFK first. His evidence? Haag said that the missile didn’t leave a small, puncture-type wound in the Governor’s back, like a typical entrance wound. Instead, it left an oval, 3-cm long, “yawed” entry wound, the full length of Commission Exhibit, #399, the so-called “magic bullet.” The ovality of that back wound was forensic proof, Haag asserted, that the bullet had been destabilized by passing through JFK and was traveling sideways, not point forward, when it hit Connally’s back. As we pointed out, this particular myth has long been debunked. Connally’s back wound was no more oval than JFK’s skull wound, and no one has ever argued JFK’s fatal missile had been destabilized and was yawing when it took the President’s life. (https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/nova-s-cold-case-jfk-junk-science-pbs)

The Haags should have known that Dr. Shaw said Connally's back wound was 1.5 cm wide, the same width as JFK's head wound. The 3-cm size was the size of the wound after Shaw debrided and cleaned it, as Shaw himself explained. This is JFK 101 stuff, and the Haags couldn't even get this simple stuff right. They used the misleading 3-cm size to support their assumption that the bullet that allegedly exited JFK's throat was traveling sideways when it hit Connally, even though Dr. Shaw said the bullet created a narrow wound track through Connally's chest. How does a bullet traveling sideways create a 1.5-cm wide entry wound and a narrow wound track through a torso? And on and on we could go.

More reading on the Haags' junk science:

https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/AguilarWechtAFTA2016.pdf

https://share.google/nZYCiaroTEpjo1c5h

Isn't it curious that in every other SBT wound ballistics test, FMJ bullets that did even just some of the damage attributed to CE 399 emerged more deformed than CE 399? Don't you find that curious?

BTW, can you tell where in their writings the Haags address the fact that JFK's tie had no hole through it, proving that no bullet exited the throat and the shirt slits? Where do they address the fact that the shirt slits had no fabric missing from them and no metallic traces around them, that one of the Parkland nurses confirmed that nurses made the slits, that the slits look nothing like any of the other clothing exit holes in JFK and Connally's clothing, and that Dr. Carrico confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar and tie?