Why Was Oswald's Military Spy Plane Knowledge Considered Of No Value To USSR ?

[Watson Phillips]

I suggest you read something more reliable. Here’s the truth regarding LHO’s (not top secret) security clearance:

While in the Marines, Lee Harvey Oswald was granted a security clearance to handle classified matter up to and including "confidential".
Security Clearance Level: Oswald's clearance allowed him access to information classified as "confidential".
Reason for Clearance: His training as a radar operator required a security clearance.
Documented Clearance: A May 1957 document stated that he was "granted final clearance to handle classified matter up to and including confidential after careful check of local records had disclosed no derogatory data".

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+type+of+security+clearance+did+oswald+have+while+in+the+marines&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS922US923&oq=what+type+of+security+clearance+did+oswald+have+while+in+the+marines&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTMzMTE0ajBqN6gCE7ACAeIDBBgBIF_xBYlfXo03ad3O&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

So I take it you believe Oswald was a humble type of individual,  not the type to exaggerate and overinflate his own intelligence & importance in describing himself ?

[Tom Graves]

Yuri Nosenko said the Soviets didn't know he had any connection with the U-2 flights and apparently Oswald didn't admit to. However, I've also read that they did ask him about the U-2 and supposedly he gave them information they already knew. So who knows?

Mr. KLEIN. Who [Oswald] had been a radar operator and had worked on a base from which U-2 airplanes took off and landed, that he wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB to speak to him, to find out if he knew any of this information?
Mr. NOSENKO. Mr. Klein, I understand your position, but we didn't know that he had any connection with U-2 flights. That is one thing. And if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written by Mr. Epstein in the book, it is a little bit from the air taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how important for KGB to know about such base that base. We knew it in the fifties when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950, 1951, 1952. We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi base, and we knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, we didn't know a word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2 flights.
Mr. KLEIN. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of information about that when he wanted to defect, is that correct ?
Mr. NOSENKO. No.

Dear Steve M.,

"So, who knows?"

LOL!

Do you have any the idea what the true reason was for Nosenko's contacting the CIA in Geneva in June 1962 and claiming that he desperately needed $250 worth of Swiss francs in exchange for two (or was it four?) pieces of "intel"?

Hint: You won't find the true answer in Mangold's Cold Warrior, Wise's Molehunt, or Weiner's Legacy of Ashes (if they even write about it, that is).

You'll find it in the 2007 Yale University Press book, Spy Wars: Moles, Mysteries, and Deadly Games, by Nosenko's former primary CIA case officer, Tennent H. Bagley.

FWIW, Bagley was on the fast track to become Director of CIA before Nosenko reappeared in Geneva two months after the assassination of JFK, as directed by General Oleg Gribanov, and decided to use what he'd been told to say to Bagley and (probable KGB mole George Kisevalter) -- that he had been Oswald's case officer in Moscow and that he therefore knew for a fact that the KGB had absolutely nothing to do with the former Marine U-2 radar operator during the two-and-one-half years he lived in the USSR -- as his "ticket" to physically defect to the U.S.

Former CIA officer W. Alan Messer has shown in his 2013 article, "In Pursuit of the Squared Circle: The Nosenko Theories Revisited," that when Nosenko decided to "go rogue" in late January 1964, the KGB had no choice but to support his bona fides in the U.S. through Kremlin-loyal Aleksei Kulak (J. Edgar Hoover's shielded-from-CIA FEDORA), Boris Orekhov (SHAMROCK), Igor Kochnov (KITTYHAWK), and Valery Yurchenko, et al.

Have you read Spy Wars, yet?

If not, you really should, you know. Because anyone who lends Nosenko any credence on anything is obviously quite . . . well . . . ignorant.

I've already told you how you can read it for free.

Factoid: After Bagley had informed Edward J. Epstein about the Nosenko case for his 1978 book, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald, and after Epstein had interviewed Richard Helms, James Angleton and William Sullivan, et al., Bagley proofread the manuscript and corrected the most egregious errors in it.

-- Tom

 

[Charles Collins]

So I take it you believe Oswald was a humble type of individual,  not the type to exaggerate and overinflate his own intelligence & importance in describing himself ?

No, not at all.



At the point in time in question, LHO was apparently desperate and reportedly tried whatever he thought might give himself a chance to stay in the USSR. LHO reportedly "attempted suicide," offered" to tell them "what he knew" from his time in the USMC, showed the Soviets that he "intended" to give up his passport and U.S. citizenship, etc.. I have read that he wanted the Soviets to allow him to attend the (free) university in Moscow. However due to the dire circumstances (in that they had indicated to him that they were planning to send him away instead of even letting him stay in the USSR) I believe that he swallowed hard and graciously accepted what they assigned him in Minsk. Then he apparently after a relatively short time realized that he no longer desired to stay in Russia.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

My understanding of the explanation for Russia’s ability to shoot down U2 spy planes is that the development of their anti-aircraft missiles finally reached a point where their missiles could ascend to a high enough altitude. Before that, the U2 spy planes were simply out of their reach. I believe that due to the fact that this happened while LHO was in Russia is just another one of those “strange” coincidences that happened. I ask: what could LHO have possibly told them about the U2 that would have enabled their missiles to reach higher altitudes. I don’t believe LHO’s presence in Russia had anything at all to do with that development.

Charles: We can add this to the "What did Oswald tell the Soviets about the U-2?" question. It's Nechiporneko from "Passport to Assassination". He was one of the three KGB agents at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City that met Oswald. He says that after the assassination he examined Oswald's case file. Here is what he said about the interrogation of Oswald. It supports Nosenko's view that they didn't ask Oswald about the matter.



I was also wondering exactly how many - or even if any - U2 flights took off from Atsugi at the time Oswald was working in the radar "bubble". Oswald was at Atsugi from late September to October 1957 when it seems that most of the U2 flights originated from US bases in Europe or Turkey and not Atsugi. The focus/concern at that time was the Suez Crisis. As you can see below from '56 to '59 the vast number of flights were sent over the Middle East. Those were flights that apparently all took off from the US base in Turkey.

I don't have the exact number that took off from Atsugi but I think it was, at the time Oswald was there (again about a month) small. It's conceivable to me that none of the flights took off when Oswald was assigned to radar operations. But I think the evidence indicates at least one? And as both Nosenko and Nechiporenko said, the KGB did not know about any U-2 flights from Atsugi. So is it possible there weren't any when Oswald was there? Yes, I am really pulling stuff out of my you-know-what here.

[Charles Collins]

Charles: We can add this to the "What did Oswald tell the Soviets about the U-2?" question. It's Nechiporneko from "Passport to Assassination". He was one of the three KGB agents at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City that met Oswald. He says that after the assassination he examined Oswald's case file. Here is what he said about the interrogation of Oswald. It supports Nosenko's view that they didn't ask Oswald about the matter.



Also this. At the time Oswald was at Atsugi, late September to October 1957, most of the U2 flights originated from US bases in Europe or Turkey. The focus/concern at that time was the Suez Crisis. As you can see below from '56 to '59 the vast number of flights were sent over the Middle East. And those were flights that took off from the US base in Turkey.

I don't have the exact number that took off from Atsugi but I think it was, at the time Oswald was there (about a month) quite small. It's conceivable to me that none of the flights took off when Oswald was assigned to radar operations. And as both Nosenko and Nechiporenko said, the KGB did not know about any U-2 flights from Atsugi. Yes, just a guess.

Thanks Steve, that's some good stuff. The Gary Powers U2 flight took off from Pakistan. That's a long long way from Japan.

It's conceivable to me that none of the flights took off when Oswald was assigned to radar operations. And as both Nosenko and Nechiporenko said, the KGB did not know about any U-2 flights from Atsugi. Yes, just a guess.


I would tend to agree with that idea. I would also tend to think that, even if there were a few U2 flights from Atsugi during that time, they would have taken considerable measures to keep as many eyes as possible from actually seeing that plane. If the Soviets were unaware of it being at Atsugi, that in itself is credible evidence that it was being kept as secret as possible. And I think that a blip on a radar screen isn't likely to indicate to LHO or any of the other radar operators very much about the actual aircraft. Do you know whether or not any of LHO's coworkers have said whether or not they were aware of the U2 being at Atsugi during the time period in question?