Oswald's babies - a genuine enigma for LNers and CTers alike

[David Von Pein]

If the LN scenario is correct, there has to have been a quirk in his psychology that overrode his love for his children and the despair about leaving them without a father. My best guess is that (1) for all the reasons I can articulate, he was at his lowest ebb that week in November; (2) his conviction (or perhaps delusion) that he was someone who should be taken seriously and would one day have a place in history must have been the single greatest driving force in his life; and (3) JFK’s motorcade route must have truly seemed like the universe speaking to him at last. But still, the “babies thing” makes me uncomfortable.

My two cents....

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"Lee Harvey Oswald was a first-rate, bona fide kook. And he killed President John F. Kennedy, by himself, when he was afforded the perfect opportunity on November 22, 1963.

Knowing Oswald (who we know for an absolute fact had murder in his veins, via the attempt on General Edwin Walker's life 7 months earlier), it would probably have been criminal (from Oswald's POV) to have allowed such a golden opportunity to pass him by when the President of the country he hated conveniently drove right by the Texas School Book Depository at 11 MPH.

How often does a chance like that drive by your workplace doorstep (in an open-top convertible, no less)? It's almost as if Oswald was daring HIMSELF to take those shots at the President."

-- David V.P.; September 11, 2007

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More of my thoughts here:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/Oswald's Decision To Shoot JFK

[Richard Smith]

I hate the term "Lone Nut" because I think Oswald was anything but a nut. Highly complex, disturbed, angry, erratic, etc., but not a "nut" in any conventional sense. "Lone Assassin" - fine.

What troubles me especially are (1) the babies, (2) his almost desperate efforts to reconcile with Marina the day before, and (3) his complete lack of any indication that this might be good-bye. We'll never know exactly what passed between him and Marina that afternoon and evening, but I have to believe it was some Last Straw. I also have to believe that the need to be taken seriously and achieve the importance he thought he deserved must have been the driving psychological factor. But then we bump up against the obvious question, "Then why did he adamantly deny any involvement?" My theory, especially after his effort to contact Abt, is that he realized a trial could be months of Marxist Theater that would cement his place in history.

I'm not such a LN zealot that I can't admit I find some issues like this troubling for the LN narrative.

Oswald was making efforts to ship Marina and his kids back to Russia when he was trying to get to Cuba.  She was living with Ruth Paine less because of any marital difficulties than to help Oswald with his limited means.  There was no apparent need to "reconcile."  Certainly not suddenly out of the blue on Nov. 21 when Oswald could have made his usual trip to the Paine residence after work on Friday.  Oswald left his wedding ring and a large amount of money with Marina on Friday morning.  He certainly couldn't tell her what he was planning to do that day.  That was as much a symbolic goodbye as he could make under the circumstances.  The difficulty here is not understanding why Oswald would commit this act but why anyone would do such a thing.  When I say that Oswald was "different" that doesn't necessarily mean that he was suffering from any mental illness.  There is an intangible quality that causes some individuals to act on their violent impulses while many similarly situated individuals do not.  The FBI can profile these folks after the fact and see often red flags, but for every person who commits an assassination, school shooting, or other such act of societal violence, there may be thousands of others with the same red flags who never do so.

[John Mytton]

Oswald was making efforts to ship Marina and his kids back to Russia when he was trying to get to Cuba.  She was living with Ruth Paine less because of any marital difficulties than to help Oswald with his limited means.  There was no apparent need to "reconcile."  Certainly not suddenly out of the blue on Nov. 21 when Oswald could have made his usual trip to the Paine residence after work on Friday.  Oswald left his wedding ring and a large amount of money with Marina on Friday morning.  He certainly couldn't tell her what he was planning to do that day.  That was as much a symbolic goodbye as he could make under the circumstances.  The difficulty here is not understanding why Oswald would commit this act but why anyone would do such a thing.  When I say that Oswald was "different" that doesn't necessarily mean that he was suffering from any mental illness.  There is an intangible quality that causes some individuals to act on their violent impulses while many similarly situated individuals do not.  The FBI can profile these folks after the fact and see often red flags, but for every person who commits an assassination, school shooting, or other such act of societal violence, there may be thousands of others with the same red flags who never do so.

I think that Oswald made up his mind at least by Thursday when he tells Frazier he wanted to get curtain rods, so he had a cover story for his brown paper rifle bag that he was planning to take to work on the Friday morning.
But the following exchange with Marina is interesting, was Oswald looking for a reason not to do the deed or was he hoping to get Marina's hopes up, then screw her over or perhaps deep down he knew that his marriage was over and just wanted confirmation?

Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.
On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that
he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas.
He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't need him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something for himself--that I would manage.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed.

[Charles Collins]

I think that Oswald made up his mind at least by Thursday when he tells Frazier he wanted to get curtain rods, so he had a cover story for his brown paper rifle bag that he was planning to take to work on the Friday morning.
But the following exchange with Marina is interesting, was Oswald looking for a reason not to do the deed or was he hoping to get Marina's hopes up, then screw her over or perhaps deep down he knew that his marriage was over and just wanted confirmation?

Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.
On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that
he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas.
He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't need him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something for himself--that I would manage.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed.

I think that LHO was smart enough and experienced enough to know ahead of time that his unexpected and uninvited arrival at Ruth Paine’s house on Thursday evening was going to upset Marina. And that therefore any reconciliation efforts by him were very unlikely to succeed. If indeed he realized this ahead of time, then it seems to me that his reconciliation efforts were probably not sincere. They could have been designed to make her regret not being more receptive. Or they could have been designed to distract her enough so that she would be less likely to guess that he came to get his rifle. I do believe that LHO had figured out his plan for the ambush from behind on Thursday before he asked Frazier for a ride to Irving. And that he had already made up his mind that he was going to go through with it. I doubt that he could have stopped himself from shooting at JFK even if Marina had agreed to his requested reconciliation.

[Richard Smith]

I think that Oswald made up his mind at least by Thursday when he tells Frazier he wanted to get curtain rods, so he had a cover story for his brown paper rifle bag that he was planning to take to work on the Friday morning.
But the following exchange with Marina is interesting, was Oswald looking for a reason not to do the deed or was he hoping to get Marina's hopes up, then screw her over or perhaps deep down he knew that his marriage was over and just wanted confirmation?

Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.
On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that
he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas.
He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't need him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something for himself--that I would manage.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed.

I think Oswald was as surprised as anyone that he pulled off the assassination.  If an opportunity had not presented itself on 11.22, he packs up his rifle and takes it home.   No one is the wiser.  Maybe Marina and his kids move back with him at some point.  Oswald and Marina were combative during their relationship.  I don't view Marina's living with Ruth Paine as a separation caused by marital difficulties but rather an agreed upon arrangement until Oswald could get on his feet financially.  There was no "reconciliation" required but rather a separation of convenience for everyone until Oswald was capable of supporting his family.

[Tom Graves]

I’ve read literally everything there is to read about Oswald. I think I “know” him as well as he can be known. I can articulate a pretty convincing downward spiral that might have left him feeling hopeless on November 21 and 22. And yet, the “babies thing” still haunts me.

If the LN scenario is correct, there has to have been a quirk in his psychology that overrode his love for his children and the despair about leaving them without a father. My best guess is that (1) for all the reasons I can articulate, he was at his lowest ebb that week in November; (2) his conviction (or perhaps delusion) that he was someone who should be taken seriously and would one day have a place in history must have been the single greatest driving force in his life; and (3) JFK’s motorcade route must have truly seemed like the universe speaking to him at last. But still, the “babies thing” makes me uncomfortable.

Dear Lance,

You seem to have forgotten that Oswald was a self-described Marxist.

And who's to say the KGB didn't "MK/ULTRA" him during the two-and-one-half years he lived in the USSR?

Or is it only the evil, evil CIA that does that sort of thing?

-- Tom

[Lance Payette]

Dear Lance,

You seem to have forgotten that Oswald was a self-described Marxist.

And who's to say the KGB didn't "MK/ULTRA" him during the two-and-one-half years he lived in the USSR?

Or is it only the evil, evil CIA that does that sort of thing?

-- Tom

No, I haven't forgotten he was a Marxist. I believe he was an entirely sincere Marxist as he understood that term (i.e., very idealistically). I think his Marxist ideology was certainly an important factor in his actions on November 22.

If there were a shred of evidence he'd been subjected to something like MK/ULTRA by the KGB, I'd certainly listen. His actions after returning to the U.S., and specifically in relation to the JFKA, seem to me awfully hard to square with a KGB-programmed Manchurian candidate.