Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
Zeon Mason

Author Topic: Oak Cliff Time Trials  (Read 1406 times)

Offline Michael Capasse

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2024, 11:03:31 PM »
Advertisement
excellent posts Michael , thank you for providing them .

 Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2024, 11:03:31 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3134
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2024, 12:16:24 PM »
There is an important point to be made regarding the testimony of Earlene Roberts and how it relates to the timeline of Oswald's movements after leaving the TSBD. In her testimony Roberts appears certain of two things - that Oswald was in a hurry and that he was putting on a zipper jacket when he left. She stresses that at all times Oswald was moving quickly and I think this should be reflected in any calculations regarding his movements. Any time trial I'm aware of usually involves older, out of shape men walking along. I'm unaware of one involving a young fit male double-timing. I'm unaware of one that tries to demonstrate the quickest time possible.
One thing she is NOT certain of is the time Oswald initially entered the rooming house. It is amazing how often Roberts' WC testimony is relied on as gospel regarding this issue but she could hardly have been any more vague about it:

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what time it was approximately that Oswald came in?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after, because it was after President Kennedy had been shot-what time I wouldn't want to say because...


This piece of testimony is used endlessly to establish a starting point for Oswald leaving the rooming house.
But look at what she says - she thinks it was around 1:00pm or after because it was after President Kennedy was shot!!
That's like saying that it must have been 1:00pm because it was after 12:30pm!
She finishes off with the phrase "what time I wouldn't want to say". She could hardly be more vague which is in stark contrast to her certainty that Oswald was in a hurry and that he was zipping up a jacket as he left.

It is possible to get a clearer picture of what Roberts was doing leading up to Oswald entering the rooming house. In her WC testimony she states:

"Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up---I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes."

There is also this interview with Roberts. In the clip below, at 4:37, Roberts begins to explain things from the moment she turned on the TV (presumably after her friend called). She describes watching a program called "As The World Turns" when suddenly a bulletin cut in about the assassination.


So, Roberts is going about her business in the rooming house when she gets a call from one of her friends. Her friend tells her that Kennedy has been shot and that Roberts should turn on the TV to find out what's going on. Roberts turns on the TV and a program called "As The World Turns" is on. She begins to watch this and suddenly a bulletin cuts in about the assassination.
At this point it would appear that something happened to the picture on the TV. Although she had been watching "As The World Turns" with no problem, when the bulletin came on Roberts felt the need to get up and try to fix the TV because she thought something was wrong with it. As she says, "I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture". It was while she was up at the TV that Oswald came in.
I would like to suggest there was nothing wrong with the TV. The reason she could here them talking but couldn't get the picture of them talking was because when the bulletin came on there was just this static picture accompanying the broadcaster's voice:



Roberts doesn't come across as the sharpest tool in the shed and may have expected a live picture of a broadcaster as was usual with a program like the news. Except this wasn't the news, it was a special bulletin. I think this explains why she was watching the TV with no problem until the bulletin came on.
The question I would like to answer is - what time did the bulletin come on that caused Roberts to get up to fix the TV?
To do this we need the actual channel she was watching that day.


The first thing to do is to get a timestamp that connects the time on the video (Video Time = VT) to the time in the real world (Real Time = RT). Just to note, "Real Time" is not some absolute, atomic clock measurement, it is a general estimate. We get this timestamp estimate at 58:50 in the video (58:50 VT) when Walter states that JFK died at 1:00 PM "some thirty eight minutes ago".
Therefore 58:50 on the video [VT] = 1:38 PM in "Real Time" [RT] (obviously this is not to the second, just an approximation. But a close one)
The following analysis of the first part of the video is based on this approximate timestamp.

[VT] 0:00  = 12:39.10 [RT] -- "As The World Turns" is on
[VT] 1:50  = 12:41 [RT]     --  The First Bulletin flashes on (this is the one shown in the Roberts interview)
[VT] 2:50  = 12:42 [RT]     --  First Bulletin ends, followed by various ads
[VT] 4:57  = 12:44.07 [RT] -- Second Bulletin flashes on
[VT] 7:08  = 12:46.18 [RT] -- Second Bulletin finishes and "As The World Turns" resumes
[VT] 8:50  = 12:48 [RT]     --  "As The World Turns" goes into an ad break
[VT] 9:34  = 12:48.44 [RT] -- Third Bulletin begins. This runs continuously until the 1:00 PM news comes on with Walter Cronkite


From this analysis we know the following:
At some point after the first or second bulletin, Roberts' friend (who has seen these bulletins) calls with the news that JFK has been shot and that Roberts should turn on her TV. Roberts turns on the TV sometime after the second bulletin has finished @12:46pm and "As The World Turns" is on. Roberts is watching this channel for no more than a coupe of minutes when the third bulletin comes on @12:49pm. It is at this point that Roberts gets up to "fix" the TV - 12:49pm.
If, as many argue, Oswald doesn't enter the rooming house until 1:00pm, we have a situation where Roberts is stood at the TV for over ten minutes!
I do not think this is feasible. The strong impression I get is that Roberts was not at the TV for long when Oswald came in. I think this puts Oswald's entry into the rooming house comfortably before 12:55pm.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 01:03:27 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3134
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2024, 04:24:53 PM »
There is another piece of evidence that indicates Oswald may have been back at the rooming house earlier than usually thought.
William Whaley's ride manifest states that Oswald was picked up between 12:30 and 12:45pm:



This evidence is in harmony with Oswald arriving back at the rooming house as early as 12:55pm.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2024, 04:24:53 PM »


Online Zeon Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2024, 03:40:09 AM »
Ok I could buy the argument that Oswald might double time AFTER he left the boarding house because he wanted to get to a  bus stop before his transfer ticket expired at 1:15.

But is that what an assassin would do?

Seems to me an assassin of JFK who presumably thought the  rifle he left behind (leaving no prints on it) which he also thought was untraceable to himself, would not be in any hurry to leave TSBD once he had been cleared by DPD officer Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom 90 seconds post shots.

And would he have walked/ ran 7 blocks to frantically bang on some bus door and then wanted a transfer ticket and then double timed to a Taxi only to be driven to a point 5 blocks away from his boarding house?

These actions seem more like those of someone who was paranoid he was being set up, which may have started soon after the shots fired and was related to the 26 package that he possibly was paid to deliver  to the TSBD loading dock annex bldg and where he might have been waiting in the Domino room to meet someone to whom the package would be given, but the person never showed up.

My theory is that Oswald had moved his MC rifle from the Paines garage in Oct 63 to his boarding house, and Oswald was returning in haste to the boarding house because he was paranoid that the rifle had been stolen.

Once Oswald checked his room and the hiding place, and saw the rifle was gone, his paranoia that he was being set up became reality which is why Oswald got his revolver and left the boarding room quickly and why he started double timing after leaving the house to get to a bus stop.

Perhaps Oswald was going to take that bus to the Marsalis Zoo where he could hide out until night and then get on an empty boxcar on the nearby rail line and get out of Dallas.

Or, Oswald could have been heading to Rubys house because he thought Ruby could help him out (especially if Ruby and Oswald were CIA assets).

 In either case, Oswald being unexpectedly intercepted by Tippit and shooting Tippit could be due to paranoia rather than because Oswald had shot JFK.


Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5125
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2024, 06:21:57 PM »
Ok I could buy the argument that Oswald might double time AFTER he left the boarding house because he wanted to get to a  bus stop before his transfer ticket expired at 1:15.

But is that what an assassin would do?

Seems to me an assassin of JFK who presumably thought the  rifle he left behind (leaving no prints on it) which he also thought was untraceable to himself, would not be in any hurry to leave TSBD once he had been cleared by DPD officer Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom 90 seconds post shots.

And would he have walked/ ran 7 blocks to frantically bang on some bus door and then wanted a transfer ticket and then double timed to a Taxi only to be driven to a point 5 blocks away from his boarding house?

These actions seem more like those of someone who was paranoid he was being set up, which may have started soon after the shots fired and was related to the 26 package that he possibly was paid to deliver  to the TSBD loading dock annex bldg and where he might have been waiting in the Domino room to meet someone to whom the package would be given, but the person never showed up.

My theory is that Oswald had moved his MC rifle from the Paines garage in Oct 63 to his boarding house, and Oswald was returning in haste to the boarding house because he was paranoid that the rifle had been stolen.

Once Oswald checked his room and the hiding place, and saw the rifle was gone, his paranoia that he was being set up became reality which is why Oswald got his revolver and left the boarding room quickly and why he started double timing after leaving the house to get to a bus stop.

Perhaps Oswald was going to take that bus to the Marsalis Zoo where he could hide out until night and then get on an empty boxcar on the nearby rail line and get out of Dallas.

Or, Oswald could have been heading to Rubys house because he thought Ruby could help him out (especially if Ruby and Oswald were CIA assets).

 In either case, Oswald being unexpectedly intercepted by Tippit and shooting Tippit could be due to paranoia rather than because Oswald had shot JFK.

Oswald likely couldn't believe his luck when Baker let him go.  After that, he is making tracks.  Oswald knew he was already a person of interest to the FBI.  Once they learned that he worked in the building from which the shots were fired, he was toast.  He has a limited window of opportunity and made the most of it.  Without a car or much money, he is limited in his options.  Of which there were no good ones.  Oswald accepted his death or arrest in making the decision to commit this act.  That doesn't mean he was just going to sit down and wait for the handcuffs.  Like almost every criminal in history, he was going to play out his hand until his luck ran out.  That is what he did.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2024, 06:21:57 PM »


Online Zeon Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2024, 01:11:27 AM »
Its amazing me how 2 people could be in virtually total agreement concerning which of the 2 US presidential candidates are the better choice, yet  be so far apart concerning the JFK assassination 😳

Offline Bill Brown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1798
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2024, 01:22:31 AM »
I believe Oswald removed the spent shell casings from his revolver as he was making his way to the corner of Tenth and Patton in order to have a fully loaded revolver in case another cop was around the corner.

Remember, Dallas Sheriff's Deputy Unit #109 reported that he was very nearby once news of the Tippit shooting went out over the police airwaves.  If 109 was nearby AFTERWARDS, he could have been there shortly before.  Point being, I believe Oswald saw 109, reversed direction and soon afterwards encountered Tippit.  These two "encounters" (if you will) would definitely give Oswald concern to proceed further without a loaded weapon.

If you're Oswald, once you've seen two patrol cars in a matter of two minutes, you'll want to be sure your weapon is fully loaded before turning the next corner.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2024, 01:22:31 AM »


Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5125
Re: Oak Cliff Time Trials
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2024, 01:21:47 PM »
I believe Oswald removed the spent shell casings from his revolver as he was making his way to the corner of Tenth and Patton in order to have a fully loaded revolver in case another cop was around the corner.

Remember, Dallas Sheriff's Deputy Unit #109 reported that he was very nearby once news of the Tippit shooting went out over the police airwaves.  If 109 was nearby AFTERWARDS, he could have been there shortly before.  Point being, I believe Oswald saw 109, reversed direction and soon afterwards encountered Tippit.  These two "encounters" (if you will) would definitely give Oswald concern to proceed further without a loaded weapon.

If you're Oswald, once you've seen two patrol cars in a matter of two minutes, you'll want to be sure your weapon is fully loaded before turning the next corner.

And even if he hadn't seen other police cars, Oswald is the most wanted person in the world after assassinating the president and killing a police officer.   The logical thing to do is reload his gun and keep moving for as long as possible.  There was no viable "plan" at that point.  Oswald is just moving in the direction of least resistance.