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Author Topic: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What  (Read 9776 times)

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2024, 08:57:43 AM »
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Lets assume that Knott did not stuff up. In that case........
(1)  Where did the bullet that passed throo jfk end up? What did it hit (end up) after it exited jfk?
             Knott proved beyond any doubt that the slug was made of ice & melted.

Knott's analysis is based on the shot through JFK at z223-225.  It shows that the bullet could not have struck JBC in the right armpit.

It would be interesting to see what their analysis would show if the shot occurred at z193-195, which is a better fit with all the evidence.

At that point JBC is turned to the right. Also, the right to left angle from the SN is greater than at z223-225. It appears to be at least 13. degrees and goes to JBC's left side. So it could have hit JBC on the left side after exiting JFK.
Yes. I steered clear of adding an additional dot-point before my (1), ie a say (0) that the shot that passed throo jfk had to have caused some damage,
...... (0)(a) damage to Connally, &/or
...... (0)(b) damage to the limo.

I suppose that an answer to my (0)(a) &or (0)(b) might be that the exiting slug did not have enuff speed to do any damage.
In which case i would ask.....  then where is that slug? In which case an answer might be that.........
.............. that slug was the slug found in the jfklimo by Landis, or
.............. that it was the slug that was found in the jfklimo on the night of the autopsy at Bethseda, or
............... that the slug had enuff speed to bounce out into Elm St (Hargis did say that a slug bounced offa his motorbike fender).

I doubt that Z193-195 is a better fit with all the evidence.
Firstly, Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218 (or Z219 at latest).
Nextly, an earlier shot at Z193-195 needs a steeper vertical slug angle (compared to Z196-230). And i think that a steeper vertical angle makes Knotts' alignment problem worse (i think they had the SBT at Z223).
But i agree that the nett right-to-left horizontal angle from the SN (for Z193-195) is greater than for a later shot (ie is a better fit with all of the evidence), koz Elm St is gradually curving to the left as the limo goes further down the hill.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 09:25:14 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2024, 08:57:43 AM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2024, 12:32:58 PM »
Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz link=topic=3902.msg154670#msg154670
Firstly, Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218 (or Z219 at latest).
Nextly, an earlier shot at Z193-195 needs a steeper vertical slug angle (compared to Z196-230). And i think that a steeper vertical angle makes Knotts' alignment problem worse (i think they had the SBT at Z223).
But i agree that the nett right-to-left horizontal angle from the SN (for Z193-195) is greater than for a later shot (ie is a better fit with all of the evidence), koz Elm St is gradually curving to the left as the limo goes further down the hill.
I am not sure what makes you conclude that the shot was at z218.

Here is some of the evidence of a first shot striking JFK just before z202:

1. Motorcade witnesses said that the VP car had just completed the turn and the VP security car had turned 90 degrees of the 120 degree turn and was along side the TSBD. The VP car is still turning when last seen at z181
.
2. Hugh Betzner said he took his z186 photo and began to wind his camera to take another when the first shot sounded.

3. Linda Willis said that JFK was passing between her and the Stemmons sign when the first shot sounded. JFK was in that line of sight between about z195 and z205.

4. Phil Willis said his z202 photo was taken a fraction of a second after the first shot and caused him to press the shutter.

5. In the Secret Service film made 10 days after the assassination the JFK stand-in is visible through the leaves while passing beneath the oak tree and is completely clear as he passes the lamppost and before he reaches the Thornton Freeway sign He was opposite the Thornton sign at z200.

6. Mary Woodward, standing opposite the President at about z192 said the first "horrible ear-shattering  noise" occurred just as he passed by.

7. Other witnesses farther along Elm St. such as Karan Hicks, Gloria Calvary, Carol Reed and Karrn Westbrook said the President's car was almost directly in front of them when the first shot sounded.

8. SA Jack Ready in the right front running board of the QM said he immediately turned to the rear when he heard the first shot.  He begins his turn releasing his right hand from the front hand-hold at z199.

9. T.E. Moore said the president had reached the Thornton sign when the first shot sounded. JFK was in that position at z200.

10. The shot pattern recalled by over 40 witnesses puts the relative spacing 1......2...3 with a longer pause between the first and second and the last two in rapid succession. That is over six seconds if the last two were 2 seconds apart.

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2024, 01:41:33 PM »
I am not sure what makes you conclude that the shot was at z218.

Here is some of the evidence of a first shot striking JFK just before z202:

1. Motorcade witnesses said that the VP car had just completed the turn and the VP security car had turned 90 degrees of the 120 degree turn and was along side the TSBD. The VP car is still turning when last seen at z181
.
2. Hugh Betzner said he took his z186 photo and began to wind his camera to take another when the first shot sounded.

3. Linda Willis said that JFK was passing between her and the Stemmons sign when the first shot sounded. JFK was in that line of sight between about z195 and z205.

4. Phil Willis said his z202 photo was taken a fraction of a second after the first shot and caused him to press the shutter.

5. In the Secret Service film made 10 days after the assassination the JFK stand-in is visible through the leaves while passing beneath the oak tree and is completely clear as he passes the lamppost and before he reaches the Thornton Freeway sign He was opposite the Thornton sign at z200.

6. Mary Woodward, standing opposite the President at about z192 said the first "horrible ear-shattering  noise" occurred just as he passed by.

7. Other witnesses farther along Elm St. such as Karan Hicks, Gloria Calvary, Carol Reed and Karrn Westbrook said the President's car was almost directly in front of them when the first shot sounded.

8. SA Jack Ready in the right front running board of the QM said he immediately turned to the rear when he heard the first shot.  He begins his turn releasing his right hand from the front hand-hold at z199.

9. T.E. Moore said the president had reached the Thornton sign when the first shot sounded. JFK was in that position at z200.

10. The shot pattern recalled by over 40 witnesses puts the relative spacing 1......2...3 with a longer pause between the first and second and the last two in rapid succession. That is over six seconds if the last two were 2 seconds apart.
Your reference to 9. re Moore is wrong. Moore did not say that shot-1 was at the Thornton sign, Moore said that it was when the jfklimo was near the small highway markers near the overhead signals. The reference to the Thornton sign was inserted by the FBI.
In any case, my reason for shot-2 being at Z218 is that that frame accords with the reactions of jfk & Connally.
In addition, Z218 accords with Lattimer's 1994 lapel flip tests, as i explain in that thread. The 1963 lapel flip is at Z224, & the 1994 lapel flip test tells me that the 1963 shot was 6 frames earlier, ie at Z218, But i would be ok with Z219 at latest.

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2024, 01:41:33 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2024, 06:52:53 PM »
Your reference to 9. re Moore is wrong. Moore did not say that shot-1 was at the Thornton sign, Moore said that it was when the jfklimo was near the small highway markers near the overhead signals. The reference to the Thornton sign was inserted by the FBI.
That sounds like Max Holland's attempt to put the first shot before Zapruder began filming.  Moore signed the statement. I think he would know the difference between the huge Thornton Freeway sign (with three highway markers)xall by itself and a single pole 10 feet past the traffic light with two highway markers and no sign.
Quote
In any case, my reason for shot-2 being at Z218 is that that frame accords with the reactions of jfk & Connally.
In addition, Z218 accords with Lattimer's 1994 lapel flip tests, as i explain in that thread. The 1963 lapel flip is at Z224, & the 1994 lapel flip test tells me that the 1963 shot was 6 frames earlier, ie at Z218, But i would be ok with Z219 at latest.
The whole point is to determine whether the shot through JFK could have struck JBC in the right armpit based on the SN-JFK neck-JBC right armpit trajectory being a straight line.  You have to suspend your belief that it occurred and look at the trajectory evidence at points where evidence indicates that the first shot occurred.  There is abundant, consistent evidence that the first shot did not miss and was before z202.

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2024, 08:01:41 PM »
That sounds like Max Holland's attempt to put the first shot before Zapruder began filming.  Moore signed the statement. I think he would know the difference between the huge Thornton Freeway sign (with three highway markers)xall by itself and a single pole 10 feet past the traffic light with two highway markers and no sign.The whole point is to determine whether the shot through JFK could have struck JBC in the right armpit based on the SN-JFK neck-JBC right armpit trajectory being a straight line.  You have to suspend your belief that it occurred and look at the trajectory evidence at points where evidence indicates that the first shot occurred.  There is abundant, consistent evidence that the first shot did not miss and was before z202.
Witness evidence & reaction evidence tells us that Oswald's shot-1 happened well before Z133.
I thort that Knotts (reckoned that they) showed that shot-2 after passing throo jfk would have hit Connally near his spine unless Connally was moved further left by about 10 inches.
Re the SBT having or needing a straight line, i think that it is undeniable that a dogleg or double dogleg in the SB trajectory must help the SBT.
And i am thinking that that dogleg might have been as much as say 10 deg in 10 inches, & then say 12  deg in 12 inches, making a possible total of say 22 deg in 22 inches.
We would need to use 2 blocks of jelly to do such a test, or dozens of tests, to see the possible ranges of resulting doglegs.
For example a 10 inch block of jelly seperated by say 30 inches of air from a 12 inch block of jelly would probably give a greater range of resulting doglegs than a single 22 inch block of jelly.
I suppose that both blocks of jelly should have some bone in there somewhere.

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2024, 08:01:41 PM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2024, 08:34:21 PM »
That sounds like Max Holland's attempt to put the first shot before Zapruder began filming.  Moore signed the statement. I think he would know the difference between the huge Thornton Freeway sign (with three highway markers)xall by itself and a single pole 10 feet past the traffic light with two highway markers and no sign.The whole point is to determine whether the shot through JFK could have struck JBC in the right armpit based on the SN-JFK neck-JBC right armpit trajectory being a straight line.  You have to suspend your belief that it occurred and look at the trajectory evidence at points where evidence indicates that the first shot occurred.  There is abundant, consistent evidence that the first shot did not miss and was before z202.
NO, NO, NO & NO. Here below is what Moore told Sneed.

T.E. Moore Larry Sneed  University of North Texas Press  Chapter  View Citation
Additional Information  In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:
T.E. MOORE Eyewitness
"The city ofDallas didn't kill President Kennedy; Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy....Dallas should not be blamed just because it happened here... "
Born on November 8, 1920, in Campbell, Texas, T.E. Moore moved to Dallas in 1922. After attending Bowie Elementary and Oak Cliff High School, he worked for Henderson Wholesale, a tobacco jobber, from 1938 to 1942 and from 1946 to 1959, interrupted by service in the Army during World War II in the South Pacific. In 1960, Moore went to work as a clerk for Bill Shaw, the District Clerk for Dallas County, at the Dallas County Records Building Annex.
Most everybody downtown planned to view the motorcade as it was advertised some on radio and television. As a result, I knew where the route was downtown. That was really all I cared about. There was a banquet being held in one of the Market Hall buildings, so most of the Dallas County officials and I don't know who else had gone to the luncheon banquet in which I believe the President was supposed to be the speaker. So most of the county officials were gone at the time, leaving just the peons, the employees. There wasn't anything special going on that morning. Some of the clerks in the upper part of the building that could see the upper end of Main Street were watching out. When the motorcade
T.E. MOORE, EYEWITNESS 91           came into view, they called downstairs so that the offices could be locked and everybody could go outside and view the motorcade. That's when we went out on Elm Street and down about seventy-five feet to Elm and Houston. We stayed on the sidewalk till the motorcade came around the corner at which time we stepped out into the street cater-corner from the Book Depository six or eight steps so we could get a better view of the motorcade.
The motorcade came down Houston, made the turn as it ordinarily would, came down a block and then made a left hand tum to go down toward the Triple Underpass.
There was a highway marker sign right in front of the Book Depository, and as the President got around to that, the first shot was fired.
That's when the excitement really began! As he got down a little further, the second shot was fired, and then I believe as it got further down, a third shot was fired. I still believe there were three shots fired.
There's an echo down in that part of Industrial Boulevard. It's rather low down there, and it would cause an echo. I think that's what a lot of people heard was the echo of the shots, at least with the last one.
Some people even thought shots were being fired from a manhole, but I never felt that way. Nor did I smell gunpowder or see any smoke. It was too far to smell any gunpowder, and you couldn't see the muzzle of the rifle because he was standing far enough back that it wouldn't have shown.
You couldn't tell exactly where the shots were corning from, though. If I had known, I could have looked up to the comer of the fifth floor of that building and seen him, or maybe seen him. But then, as the motorcade got further down, the echo would be a little different.
A lot of people who ran up on the hilly section there thought it came from there, then the motorcade went on further out and it just echoed, I think. I feel sure that there were three shots and they spaced at regular intervals.
Not everybody ran toward the hilly section. The people that were standing along Elm Street going down toward the Triple Underpass probably ran toward the grassy knoll. But a bailiff who worked with me ran into the Book Depository at that time along with some others. I think they might have thought the shots came from there.
92 NOM 0 RES I LEN C E             When the President went in front of us, you could see him as he was waving. You could also see Governor Connally, but as they got further around the tum toward the Triple Underpass, you could see less and less.
I could see the car when the first shot was fired, which was on this side of that highway marker, a small number...


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2024, 12:17:13 AM »
NO, NO, NO & NO. Here below is what Moore told Sneed.

T.E. Moore Larry Sneed  University of North Texas Press  Chapter  View Citation
Additional Information  In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:
T.E. MOORE Eyewitness

There was a highway marker sign right in front of the Book Depository, and as the President got around to that, the first shot was fired.
 
So you prefer Moore's reported recollection 24 years after the events to a writer who wants to establish an early first shot miss -  to the statement taken by an FBI officer trained in taking accurate witness statements 6 weeks after the events.  Ok fine. But how do you explain Hugh Betzner, Robert Croft, ( after z186, after z161) Phil Willis (before z202) and all the other evidence I referred to that conflicts with his alleged statement to Sneed.   Maybe Sneed got it wrong. After all, not only did Moore get the wrong sign in his FBI statement but he imagined JFK moving in response to it...

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2024, 12:17:13 AM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2024, 12:40:06 AM »
So you prefer Moore's reported recollection 24 years after the events to a writer who wants to establish an early first shot miss -  to the statement taken by an FBI officer trained in taking accurate witness statements 6 weeks after the events.  Ok fine. But how do you explain Hugh Betzner, Robert Croft, ( after z186, after z161) Phil Willis (before z202) and all the other evidence I referred to that conflicts with his alleged statement to Sneed.   Maybe Sneed got it wrong. After all, not only did Moore get the wrong sign in his FBI statement but he imagined JFK moving in response to it...
Most of the witness statements were partly or mostly wrong.
For example, 5 minutes ago i was reading some wordage from Brehm (see below). Brehm mentions 3 shots.
That is ok. But, Brehm says that the 3rd shot, ie the last shot, was after the previous shot had destroyed jfk's head. Yet Brehm (& his boy) were very close to the limo.
Then, Brehm tells us that he had watched the motorcade at the intersection of Main & Houston, & that he had raced down to Elm to get another look.
So, it turns out that Brehm had not heard the first shot (which was up near the overhead signals)(ie at say pseudo Z105), because Brehm was galloping across the grass at the time.
And so it goes.

Charles Brehm Larry Sneed   University of North Texas Press  Chapter  View Citation
Additional Information  In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:
CHARLES BREHM Eyewitness "If the assassination had to happen, I'm glad that I was here to see it. This way I don't have to depend on other people, like the rest of the world does, as to what happened in those six or eight seconds... " A veteran of the Second World War in the Ranger battalions, Brehm is one of the very few to have witnessed two of the epic events of the twentieth century: the D-Day invasion and the John F. Kennedy assassination.
At the time ·of the assassination, Brehm was a carpet salesman for Montgomery Ward at the Wynnewood Shopping Center in the Oak Cliff section cf Dallas. The closest place that I could see the President was here in Dealey Plaza. Also, I was off work that Friday. I was out at the Knights of Columbus preparing a buffet for the following night where I was cooking beef which we would later cool and slice. From my house at that time, it took no more than five minutes to get here.
I parked up on the 1-35 freeway, which was not completely developed at that time, and walked down with my five year old boy to the northwest comer of Main and Houston Streets. Main is a two way street as it was then. As the parade approached on Main about two blocks away, the police stopped all traffic, and we were able to move right out in the middle of the street. I had a
CHARLES BREHM, EYEWITNESS 61                   wonderful view; the first time I had ever seen the President of the United States. As he turned the comer at Main onto Houston, I looked over toward the Texas School Book Depository and realized that the tum onto Elm would be a difficult one as it was more than ninety degrees, and each and every car would have to make the same tum.
I realized, with the slow tum, that I would have time to move down across the grassy median and get another look across from what is now known as the grassy knoll.
So, with my five year old boy, and twenty-five years younger and that many pounds lighter, I was able to grab him and run across the plaza to the south side of Elm Street across from the steps on the grassy knoll and probably still see the Presidential parade tum the comer up by the School Book Depository.
I ran as fast as I could and, in fact, did beat the motorcade and was down on the curb before he made the tum onto Elm.
As I was standing there, then the parade came around that comer with a wide curve toward the School Book Depository.
After the car passed the building coming toward us, I heard a noise, and I say noise. If I wanted to recreate what happened, there was no shot that I could say, "God, there was a shot!" or something like that. There was a surprising noise, and he reached with both hands up to the side of his throat and kind of stiffened out, and you could see as he approached us that he had been hit. Of course, it became obvious immediately after the surprise noise that it was a shot and that he was hurt.
And when he got down in the area just past me, the second shot hit which damaged, considerably damaged, the top of his head. Realizing that he was hit in the head, and from what I could see of the damage, it just didn't seem like there was any chance in the world that he could have lived through it.
That car took off in an evasive motion, back and forth, and was just beyond me when a third shot went off. The third shot really frightened me! It had a completely different sound to it because it had really passed me as anybody knows who has been down under targets in the Army or been shot at like I had been many times. You know when a bullet passes over you, the cracking sound it makes, and that bullet had an absolute crack to it. I do believe that that shot was wild. It didn't hit anybody. I don't think it could have hit anybody. But it was a frightening thing to me because here was one shot that hit him,
62 NO MORE SILENCE           obviously; here was another that destroyed his head...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 06:06:53 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »