When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

Dan made a good point about JBCs own estimate of Z234 as the approx point at which JC felt the effect of a bullet hitting him.

It’s only 0.5 sec approx after the Z 224 abrupt forward motion of JCs right shoulder.

It’s certainly without doubt well before Z270.

There do not seem to be any other forum members who agree with Andrew that JCs reaction at Z224 was merely just from hearing a shot fired at Z195 approx.

Yet  the Willis girl stopping approx Z195 and the Betzner 186 photo and Willis Z205 photo are valid reasons to consider that the 1st  loud shot heard was at Z195-200 approx.

Is there any way to reconcile a Z195 loud shot with  a Z224 loud shot?

Zeon, if the first shot was around z195 how long do you think it would take for JBC to recognze it was a rifle shot, realize that an assassination was unfolding, complete his turn around to check on JFK and then turn back to be facing forward at z222? JBC could not have heard a shot at z195 and done all that in less than a 1.5 seconds.  So a first shot at z195 means that JBC is beginning his turn to check JFK after he emerges from behind the sign.

[Andrew Mason]

"the lanes were 12 feet wide"

Where do you get this? The lanes have equal width. On a 40' wide street with 6" wide stripes, they are 13 feet wide.

Standard lane widths in North America are 12 feet. I think you will find that the 40' width figure includes the sidewalk and curbs.  JFK appears to be in the middle of the middle lane:


He does not appear to be left of the centre of the lane.  The car was 76.8 inches wide (6'4.8")  and tires are about a foot to the right of the lane marker, so the right edge of the car is almost 7.5 feet right of the left lane marker.

My plotting says JFK arrived opposite the lamppost at Z190. This is way closer to the Cutler and Roberdeau placements than Z186. I used the line-of-travel at the center of the street. If more to the south, he would arrive later than Z190.

So show us your plotting!

As explained to you countless times, you're using a dissolved-foreground frame capture that allows the lightness of the white car to bleed through. It's a camera effect that I wonder if the human eye could duplicate. I don't think the SS intentionally wanted the foreground to dissolve; it just happened. From the SN window, Kennedy was dark-on-dark in his limousine and pictures of the foliage taken through the still cameras on Nov. 22 and during the SS reenactment show the foliage obscured the car in the Z190s.

And show us why JFK was not visible between the lamp post and Thornton sign!  You can't use the FBI May 1964 recreation because it uses he wrong car and with the tree looking very much fuller than it was in late fall 1963.

[Joe Elliott]

. . .

Yet  the Willis girl stopping approx Z195 and the Betzner 186 photo and Willis Z205 photo are valid reasons to consider that the 1st  loud shot heard was at Z195-200 approx.

. . .

Certainly Rosemary Willis coming to a stop around z195 is not evidence for a shot at z195-200. Because what is relevant is not when she came to a stop but when she started to slow down. Humans, girls, indeed objects in general cannot stop on a dime, unless they run into a brick wall. They have to decelerate, which takes some time. We have to take into account basic physics.

I have studied frames of the Zapruder film using the Costella images which anyone can find by googling 'zapruder frames'. I invite anyone to do that, to see how far she goes from z150-160, with z160-z170, with z170-z180, with z180-z190, with z190-z200. You can check her position relative to some stationary object like the standing man she disappears behind at z154. And draw a simple diagram of a large rectangle representing the man, and shorter rectangles showing Rosemary at z150, z160, z170, z180 and z190. It appears to me that she starts to slow down sometimes during the z160's and is almost stopped by z180. Between z150-z160 she travels about one and a half of her own width (from Mr. Zapruder's angle). But between z160-z170 she only travels about one width. She is clearly slowing down during the z160's.

Considering that it takes a human mind a little while to react to a loud noise and decide what to do, starting to slow down during the z160's is not at all evidence of a shot around z195-200 but is consistent with a shot at z152, which corresponds to a Zapruder camera jiggle around z157.

[Andrew Mason]

Certainly Rosemary Willis coming to a stop around z195 is not evidence for a shot at z195-200. Because what is relevant is not when she came to a stop but when she started to slow down. Humans, girls, indeed objects in general cannot stop on a dime, unless they run into a brick wall. They have to decelerate, which takes some time. We have to take into account basic physics.

It doesn't take that long to stop. Most people can go from a run to a stop in 2 or 3 steps. She may have been slowing because the President's car was pulling away and she could not longer keep up to it.  Besides, she said that when she heard the first shot she stopped and looked back at the TSBD and saw pigeons flying away from the roof. She stops at z199.  She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204. She then turns sharply back toward the TSBD at z204-207. Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot.

[Charles Collins]

"She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204."



Rosemary can easily see the Depository as she was slowing. Even if her eyes were looking straight out from her head, she could see with both eyes. More likely, she had her eyes turned a little in the direction of the shot, which allowed her to focus a line-of-sight on the pigeons.

"Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot."

Who said that? Must be more Masomactics.

Another excellent graphic Jerry. I think that it might be enlightening if the positioning of the limo during the time period is also indicated on the graphic.

[Charles Collins]

A 12’ lane width is only the minimum standard for interstate highways in the USA. In practice they vary quite a bit. People who live in Texas and California are accustomed to significantly wider lanes. So much wider that they often comment on how narrow the lanes are when they are visiting elsewhere. A rough idea of Elm Street’s width can be measured with Google Maps. It shows the lanes’ widths to be about 13 feet each.

[Joe Elliott]

. . .

"Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot."

. . .

Who said that? Must be more Masomactics.

Pigeons not waiting 5 seconds to take flight after hearing a shot is a basic insight of biology that Charles Darwin devoted an entire chapter to in his book 'Origin of the Species". Or maybe this is just something Andrew came up with. I don't remember.

Actually, I think Pigeons are unpredictable. They might hear a shot and stay still and look around before a second or even a third shot causes one of them to take off and the rest to follow suit. Or maybe they would take off from near the center of the roof after the first shot but not become visible to observers on Elm Street until they were 20 feet or more above the roof, or flew horizontally into view to people below. There could be a delay of several seconds after they took off before people could see them. Or maybe not. It is hard to say.

Besides, I am reluctant to rely on the memories of witnesses, let along the decisions of pigeons.