Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?

[Brian Doyle]

At least you've not taken Brian's road, who appears to be doubling-down on his insane suggestion that the woman who races straight past the two men within a fraction of a second has, somehow, stopped for a chat.
What's funny is the clip he posted to show this "interaction" in slow motion actually shows "Shelley" looking away from the girl as she streaks past and that "Lovelady" is stood in between the girl and "Shelley" for the nano-second this interaction is supposed to have taken place.
But, like you, his mind is made up and no amount of evidence is going to change that.

That said, I do believe both Shelley and Lovelady are liars but there is a pattern to their lying which doesn't involve the reality of the encounter with Calvery. And why these two so-called ordinary workmen should be lying to the authorities from day one is another subject altogether.

The clip I posted does indeed show Shelley pulling up in order to quickly say something to Running Woman as she runs past...If you look closely you can see Running Woman quickly turn her head towards Shelley just as she is passing him...Dan is dishonestly ignoring that we can plainly see Shelley slow down in order to talk to Running Woman and when he does Lovelady passes him and gets in front of him going up the Elm St extension...There's no doubt that this is what Shelley was referring to when he said he talked to Gloria Calvery at the concrete island...We know Running Woman isn't Calvery because Calvery had a plaid green skirt on and you can see that skirt in close-ups of Darnell...Calvery was also standing next to a woman wearing all white in the motorcade spectators and that woman is still beside her on the steps...Running Woman is probably Karen Hicks who was standing with Calvery and Reed and probably followed them to the steps...

The Gerda Dunckel clip I showed was not the original clip I referenced...That clip was an even closer slow motion close-up shot that showed Shelley turning and speaking to Running Woman and Running Woman answering in greater visibility...

There are people out there who know where Buell Frazier saying Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps originated...They are not going to honestly cite that quote for me and I'm not going to spend hours looking for it for someone who is going to ignore it anyway...He said it and it is well-known...Calvery telling Lovelady & Shelley Kennedy had been shot is what inspired them to rush up to the Knoll to check it out for themselves...Dan is ignoring that the timing we see in Couch/Darnell forces Calvery to be at the base of the steps with Lovelady & Shelley seconds before...Dan is pretending that the video doesn't show exactly what I explained...

Dan needs to study the research of Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves who proved beyond a doubt that Calvery was on the steps in Darnell in her plaid green skirt and short-length sweater and that it was definitely 100% her...That probably makes Running Woman Karen Hicks and therefore shows Shelley was mis-placing his encounter with Calvery (that the timing in Darnell shows happened further back at the steps)...Buell Frazier gave the correct description for the encounter when he said Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps...The timing in Couch/Darnell proves Frazier's version to be the correct one since that timing places Calvery at the base of the steps at the exact same time as Lovelady & Shelly...

[Dan O'meara]

The clip I posted does indeed show Shelley pulling up in order to quickly say something to Running Woman as she runs past...If you look closely you can see Running Woman quickly turn her head towards Shelley just as she is passing him...Dan is dishonestly ignoring that we can plainly see Shelley slow down in order to talk to Running Woman and when he does Lovelady passes him and gets in front of him going up the Elm St extension...There's no doubt that this is what Shelley was referring to when he said he talked to Gloria Calvery at the concrete island...We know Running Woman isn't Calvery because Calvery had a plaid green skirt on and you can see that skirt in close-ups of Darnell...Calvery was also standing next to a woman wearing all white in the motorcade spectators and that woman is still beside her on the steps...Running Woman is probably Karen Hicks who was standing with Calvery and Reed and probably followed them to the steps...

The Gerda Dunckel clip I showed was not the original clip I referenced...That clip was an even closer slow motion close-up shot that showed Shelley turning and speaking to Running Woman and Running Woman answering in greater visibility...

There are people out there who know where Buell Frazier saying Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps originated...They are not going to honestly cite that quote for me and I'm not going to spend hours looking for it for someone who is going to ignore it anyway...He said it and it is well-known...Calvery telling Lovelady & Shelley Kennedy had been shot is what inspired them to rush up to the Knoll to check it out for themselves...Dan is ignoring that the timing we see in Couch/Darnell forces Calvery to be at the base of the steps with Lovelady & Shelley seconds before...Dan is pretending that the video doesn't show exactly what I explained...

Dan needs to study the research of Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves who proved beyond a doubt that Calvery was on the steps in Darnell in her plaid green skirt and short-length sweater and that it was definitely 100% her...That probably makes Running Woman Karen Hicks and therefore shows Shelley was mis-placing his encounter with Calvery (that the timing in Darnell shows happened further back at the steps)...Buell Frazier gave the correct description for the encounter when he said Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps...The timing in Couch/Darnell proves Frazier's version to be the correct one since that timing places Calvery at the base of the steps at the exact same time as Lovelady & Shelly...

It's interesting to have you critique my opinion of this aspect of the case when you have absolutely no idea what my opinion of it is. It demonstrates a certain zeal usually reserved for Prayer Man disciples.
Just so you know, I have studied the research of Larsen, Graves, Zambanini et al. regarding the identification of Calvery in the Darnell clip and I accept that the clip does indeed show Calvery in a black headscarf at the base of the steps accompanied by the woman in white [I'm assuming it's Hicks based on your own conversations with Carol Reed, who, you say (according to Pat Speer) has no recollection of accompanying Calvery to the steps of the TSBD building.]

If you'd read my Reply#136 you'd already be aware of this.

It is because I accept these identifications that I know you are wrong regarding your identification of Lovelady and Shelley.

And your insistence that you can see "Shelley" turning and talking to Running Woman (who I believe is Carol Reed) is genuinely disturbing.
To be accused of dishonesty by someone like yourself is laughable.

[Brian Doyle]

It's interesting to have you critique my opinion of this aspect of the case when you have absolutely no idea what my opinion of it is. It demonstrates a certain zeal usually reserved for Prayer Man disciples.
Just so you know, I have studied the research of Larsen, Graves, Zambanini et al. regarding the identification of Calvery in the Darnell clip and I accept that the clip does indeed show Calvery in a black headscarf at the base of the steps accompanied by the woman in white [I'm assuming it's Hicks based on your own conversations with Carol Reed, who, you say (according to Pat Speer) has no recollection of accompanying Calvery to the steps of the TSBD building.

If you'd read my Reply#136 you'd already be aware of this.

It is because I accept these identifications that I know you are wrong regarding your identification of Lovelady and Shelley.

And your insistence that you can see "Shelley" turning and talking to Running Woman (who I believe is Carol Reed) is genuinely disturbing.
To be accused of dishonesty by someone like yourself is laughable.

Lecture me at length and then ignore the fact that anyone can look at Couch/Darnell and interpolate the positions of the people a few seconds before...That interpolation would put Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps at the exact same time that Calvery was at the base of the steps...Try answering the evidence I am spelling out to you...

I see you elected to ignore that and not answer it in your response...

I don't remember Pat Speer having anything to do with my contact with Carol Reed...Reed told me all she remembers is hurdling over people who were still laying down on the ground on the way to the steps...She said when she went to the elevator and it didn't work and the control buttons were powerless and dark...

Calvery is not at the base of the steps in Couch/Darnell...She is several steps up the steps and is face to face with Molina who is coming down the steps...

I would put my money on the woman in all white being Reed because she would be more likely to hurdle over people who were still laying on the ground if she ran with Calvery seconds before...You gotta have detective smarts in this business "Dan"...

[Dan O'meara]

Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!"...I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
    Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

At his W.C. testimony Joe Molina says he sees Gloria Calvery arrive in the lobby and discusses the shooting. So did Gloria twice say the same story, first with Bill Shelley and then in the lobby? Or was there a little pow wow afterwards? This would also indicate that Calvery’s appearance inside the T.S.B.D. would be several minutes after the assassination and not on the TSBD steps!!!

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said “Oh, my God, Joe, he’s been shot.” They were both horrified. I said “Are you sure he was shot?” She said “Oh, Joe ,I’m sure. I saw his hair fly up and I’m sure he was shot” something to that extent.

Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!

Hi Michael, when you say "No" in the quote above, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
No, what?
And just to be clear, I am saying, according to his affidavit, that Shelley first met Gloria after he had run across the street from the steps to the "corner of the park". He then followed her back to the steps where she was telling everyone that JFK had been shot.
For the benefit of clarity I will outline my own understanding of this aspect of the case. What follows is my own, personal interpretation of the evidence as I understand it. It's my own opinion.

Gloria is stood with her work colleagues when she sees JFK's head explode. She gets a good view of it and in the pandemonium that breaks out after the head-shot she races back to the TSBD with Karan Hicks (the woman in white). At around the same moment Shelley runs across the street from the TSBD building and encounters Gloria as she is running back to the building. The respective routes are shown in a version of the Roberdeau map below (which I've cleaned up for my own purposes):



According to the scale Roberdeau uses, the distance from Gloria's marked position on Elm Street to the base of the TSBD steps is approximately 150 feet. Jogging around 6mph will cover this distance in around 17 seconds. Running at a modest 8mph will cover this distance in just under 13 seconds.
After running into Shelley (at position "A"), Gloria continues towards the steps but hasn't gone far when she encounters officer Joe Marshall Smith, who had been at the intersection of Elm and Houston, holding up traffic on Elm, but who immediately made his way towards the TSBD building after hearing the shots:

"...and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here."

The bushes being referred to are those behind Gloria's position on Elm Street. Smith can be seen making his way up the Elm Street extension in Darnell.
Gloria then runs on to the TSBD steps where she tells those stood on the steps what has happened. Buell Frazier, the figure stood at the top of the steps, describes talking to Sarah [Stanton] when Gloria approaches the steps:

"...right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy...She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people."

Even though she is telling everyone in general it is Billy Lovelady who interacts with her. Lovelady is stood on the steps when Gloria comes running up:

"...I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was..."

Molina, who is stood directly outside the lobby, steps inside and is there when Gloria and Karan make their way up the steps and enter the building:

"...I was in the lobby standing there and she [Gloria] came in with this other girl...She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe, I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent."

It is important to note that Molina notices Gloria is with someone else.
As Baker approaches the steps he notices a woman in great distress:

"...there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."

It is my opinion that the Darnell clip of the TSBD step fits the general story outlined above.
In the clip below we see Gloria near the base of the steps wearing a black headscarf. It is the moment she is telling everyone there about the shooting. The bald man facing her can only be Lovelady who is questioning her about the shooting. Frazier looks on from his position at the top of the steps. Baker is approaching the scene as the highly upset Gloria recounts what has happened. Directly behind Gloria is Shelley, the man in the baggy, dark suit who appears to be moving towards the steps [presumably after returning from the other side of the street] then turns to his left.



I'm sure there is a better copy of this moment out there somewhere.
Below is a (very poor) still on which I've labelled the main players in case there's any confusion:




As I say,it's just my opinion but, if accepted, it does have a very interesting knock-on effect in that it reveals both Shelley and Lovelady lied to the WC about how long it took them to re-enter the TSBD building by the little known (at the time) west door.

[Dan O'meara]

Lecture me at length and then ignore the fact that anyone can look at Couch/Darnell and interpolate the positions of the people a few seconds before...That interpolation would put Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps at the exact same time that Calvery was at the base of the steps...Try answering the evidence I am spelling out to you...

I see you elected to ignore that and not answer it in your response...

I don't remember Pat Speer having anything to do with my contact with Carol Reed...Reed told me all she remembers is hurdling over people who were still laying down on the ground on the way to the steps...She said when she went to the elevator and it didn't work and the control buttons were powerless and dark...

Calvery is not at the base of the steps in Couch/Darnell...She is several steps up the steps and is face to face with Molina who is coming down the steps...

I would put my money on the woman in all white being Reed because she would be more likely to hurdle over people who were still laying on the ground if she ran with Calvery seconds before...You gotta have detective smarts in this business "Dan"...

That interpolation would put Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps at the exact same time that Calvery was at the base of the steps.

That is exactly what I believe this clip shows:




She is several steps up the steps and is face to face with Molina who is coming down the steps..

Molina testifies he is in the lobby when he encounters Gloria.

"Detective smarts"   

.

[Michael Welch]

Hi Dan,
"Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!

Hi Michael, when you say "No" in the quote above, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
No, what?
And just to be clear, I am saying, according to his affidavit, that Shelley first met Gloria after he had run across the street from the steps to the "corner of the park". He then followed her back to the steps where she was telling everyone that JFK had been shot." Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran! And Billy said a fast walk or trotting! The corner of the park is the Grassy Knoll by the concrete arcade where Billy thought the shots came from. It is not the concrete island; it is not Elm Street. It is what is pictured in Couch! There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there. Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby. The people on the steps are different people. Molina is still on the steps. He is the only one out of the group! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

   

[Dan O'meara]

Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran! And Billy said a fast walk or trotting! The corner of the park is the Grassy Knoll by the concrete arcade where Billy thought the shots came from. It is not the concrete island; it is not Elm Street. It is what is pictured in Couch! There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there. Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby. The people on the steps are different people. Molina is still on the steps. He is the only one out of the group! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Hey Michael, I believe the word is "wowser".
In your Reply#105 you were trying to sell the idea that the "Gloria Encounter" happened as she ran past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in the Couch clip:

"I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD."

This was quickly dispelled.
In your Reply#138 you had decided the "Gloria Encounter" hadn't happened at all:

"I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery."

Now we have the encounter happening at the Grassy Knoll:

"There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there."

Your approach to interpreting the evidence is "fluid", to say the least. I can't wait for the next installment.
As for the rest of your post, it's difficult to know where to begin:

Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran!

Except in the Couch clip "Shelley" is walking.
Shelley said he ran across the street before he met Gloria, he didn't say he walked down the street.

There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there.

Except Shelley was on his own when he first encountered Gloria.

Officer Smith met Gloria as he was approaching the TSBD then "immediately proceeded" towards the "bushes" at the end of the Elm Street extension. You have him already in that area when he meets Gloria.

Lovelady was on the steps of the TSBD building when he first encountered Gloria.

"Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby."

So Gloria and Hicks waited at the bottom of the steps until Molina returned, then decided to enter the TSBD building still hysterical about the assassination of JFK??

I'll stick with own interpretation of events if that's okay, I'm not really seeing anything in your theory I can get on board with.
All the best 

[Michael Welch]

Hey Michael, I believe the word is "wowser".
In your Reply#105 you were trying to sell the idea that the "Gloria Encounter" happened as she ran past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in the Couch clip:

"I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD."

This was quickly dispelled.
In your Reply#138 you had decided the "Gloria Encounter" hadn't happened at all:

"I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery."

Now we have the encounter happening at the Grassy Knoll:

"There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there."

Your approach to interpreting the evidence is "fluid", to say the least. I can't wait for the next installment.
As for the rest of your post, it's difficult to know where to begin:

Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran!

Except in the Couch clip "Shelley" is walking.
Shelley said he ran across the street before he met Gloria, he didn't say he walked down the street.

There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there.

Except Shelley was on his own when he first encountered Gloria.

Officer Smith met Gloria as he was approaching the TSBD then "immediately proceeded" towards the "bushes" at the end of the Elm Street extension. You have him already in that area when he meets Gloria.

Lovelady was on the steps of the TSBD building when he first encountered Gloria.

"Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby."

So Gloria and Hicks waited at the bottom of the steps until Molina returned, then decided to enter the TSBD building still hysterical about the assassination of JFK??

I'll stick with own interpretation of events if that's okay, I'm not really seeing anything in your theory I can get on board with.
All the best 

Hi Dan, I will always be fluid, and I will say I stand corrected immediately when corrected! Like I said before, you can see Bill picking up the pace after Billy starts running after Officer Smith. They all converged down by the concrete arcade by the picket fence where Gloria already was! As for Molina, he was always on the TSBD steps, so he did not return from anywhere! He met Gloria inside of the TSBD like he says in the lobby after Gloria had returned later! Thank you for all of your helpful valuable insights! Sincerely yours, Michael
   
Mr. SMITH. I didn’t know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. [7H535]
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No sir; except that maybe it was power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the—let’s put a No. 5 there [CE354] at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book depository Building. [7H535]
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was echo from the shots in the area.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from.
Mr. SMITH. Yes. [7H536]