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Author Topic: Time for Truth  (Read 33739 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #392 on: September 21, 2023, 12:09:40 PM »
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You keep missing the point. Probably intentionally, but you miss it just the same. You've been in the habit of responding to other posters by quoting a phrase or sentence of theirs and adding your own "LOL." When pressed, you defend it with up the old saw, "that which is posited without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Good enough, I guess. Anyway, I figured it would be entertaining to see how you'd react when someone pulled the same thing on you.

I never said “that which is posited without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." There’s a difference between positing a possibility and making a truth claim.

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #392 on: September 21, 2023, 12:09:40 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #393 on: September 21, 2023, 12:11:43 PM »
A possibility needs evidence to be taken seriously as a possibility. Otherwise, it's just a pipe dream.

Great. Where’s your evidence that Oswald brought CE143 into the theater?

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This is just your attempt to shift the burden of proof.

I didn’t make a truth claim requiring a burden of proof.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 12:54:14 PM by John Iacoletti »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #394 on: September 21, 2023, 12:53:28 PM »
I didn't rewrite what Brewer said. It's all verbatim from his testimony. Could you at least try to accuse me of something related so something I've actually done, instead of just making it up as you go along?

Stringing together pieces of phrases from different statements made at different times is rewriting

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The arrest report was written after the fact, and is therefore cannot be guaranteed to represent the DPDs exact intentions before Oswald's little scuffle with McDonald.

Of course an arrest report is written after an arrest. What’s your point? And I made no argument regarding their exact intentions before the scuffle.

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Who said that the gun didn't leave Oswald's waistband?

McDonald did. In his report to Curry:

“With his right hand, he reached to his waist and both of our hands were on a pistol that was stuck in his belt under his shirt. he both fell into the seats struggling for the pistol. At this time I yelled, "I've got him." Three uniformed officers came to my aid immediately. One on the suspect's left, one to the rear in the row behind and one to the front in the row directly in front of the suspect and I. I managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip I heard the snap of the hammer and the pistol crossed over my left cheek, causing a four inch scratch.”

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So McDonald says Oswald was pulling a gun from his waistband during the first exchange of blows, and said Oswald did indeed manage to pull it out of the waistband during the kerfluffle.

No, McDonald jerked the pistol causing it to come out.

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Brewer, John Gibson, and Applin saw Oswald holding a pistol in his hand during the fight.

Again, Applin saw a gun in the hand of somebody wearing a short sleeved shirt. Oswald wasn’t.

Many hands were on the gun at some point during the scuffle. It doesn’t just follow that holding a gun means you pulled it out.

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Look at the photos take at the scene and tell me how many of the DPD officers were wearing short sleeves that day. So far, I count....zero. Oswald was wearing a shirt that looked to be a size or two too large for him, which could allow the cuff to be pulled back up the arm. Plus it had a big hole in the right elbow. Either could account for Applin seeing what appeared to him to be a short sleeve.

Wow, that wins the prize for lamest LN excuse. If you look at photos of the arrest shirt, you can see that the hole is not “big”. If you look at the photos of Oswald being dragged out of the theater, you can see that his sleeves are not rolled up.

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The Federal exclusionary rule was codified by Supreme Court in the the Weeks decision of 1914

I made no reference to the exclusionary rule. It’s not even relevant to the argument.

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Initially, it only applied to the Federal courts, while state and local courts retained exclusive purview over exclusion within their own jurisdictions. This included stop-and-frisk, which was generally allowed.

Generally allowed by whom, and says who?

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In 1961, this all changed when the Supremes decided in Mapp v Ohio that the Federal exclusionary rule extended into the state and local jurisdictions via the 14th amendment. This led to a flood of exclusionary rule cases entering the federal appellate courts that would have previously stopped at the state supreme court level. The Miranda case was the most famous of these. Terry v Ohio was another. In the Terry case, the Supreme Court essentially left the bar where the state courts had it.

Cite any such Texas adjudication prior to 1963. Particularly one that articulates the “reasonable suspicion” standard the Supreme Court imposed with Terry. The 4th amendment says “probable cause”.

P.S. there was no reasonable suspicion by the Terry standard anyway that the man Brewer pointed out had committed a crime or was armed.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 12:56:39 PM by John Iacoletti »

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #394 on: September 21, 2023, 12:53:28 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #395 on: September 22, 2023, 12:13:33 AM »
MT: You keep missing the point. Probably intentionally, but you miss it just the same. You've been in the habit of responding to other posters by quoting a phrase or sentence of theirs and adding your own "LOL." When pressed, you defend it with up the old saw, "that which is posited without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Good enough, I guess. Anyway, I figured it would be entertaining to see how you'd react when someone pulled the same thing on you.

I never said “that which is posited without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." There’s a difference between positing a possibility and making a truth claim.
Hmm. I seem to recall that you did at one point.

Actually, I hope you did. Otherwise, all you've been doing is repeat what someone else said for no other reason than to laugh at it. Just like Beavis and Butthead. And if you want to act like a pair of 12-year-old morons, I can't say I can't stop you. And everyone can see it for themselves.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #396 on: September 22, 2023, 07:08:24 AM »
Hmm. I seem to recall that you did at one point.

What I said is “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." It’s known as Hitchens’ Razor, after Christoper Hitchens who made the statement.

There is a fundamental difference between an assertion of a fact and a speculative possibility.

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Actually, I hope you did. Otherwise, all you've been doing is repeat what someone else said for no other reason than to laugh at it.

When somebody claims something to be a fact without any substantiation, all it deserves is a LOL. See Hitchens’ Razor. I don’t just LOL as things stated as opinions, speculations, or possibilities.

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Just like Beavis and Butthead. And if you want to act like a pair of 12-year-old morons, I can't say I can't stop you. And everyone can see it for themselves.

If you’re going to try to compare me to Beavis and Butthead, at least try to get their ages right. And you don’t speak for “everyone”. What age moron are you acting like with your belligerence?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 07:10:11 AM by John Iacoletti »

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #396 on: September 22, 2023, 07:08:24 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #397 on: September 23, 2023, 01:10:30 AM »
It could be that Oswald was just ABOUT to tell McDonald he had a revolver in his waist band, but McDonald saw the revolver and reacted to grab it just AS Oswald was going to speak.

If McDonald was attempting to plant a gun on Oswald by shoving it in Oswald’s waist, then why were not any words heard from Oswald such as “THATS NOT MY GUN” or THIS COP TRIED TO PLANT A GUN ON ME!!

Oswald was later yelling out “I’m Just a Patsy” so why didn’t he say something about McDonald trying to plant a gun?

At the midnight conference all Oswald said was that “a police officer hit me”. Nothing about a police officer trying to plant a gun however.






Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #398 on: October 15, 2023, 07:31:33 PM »
MT: A possibility needs evidence to be taken seriously as a possibility. Otherwise, it's just a pipe dream.

Great. Where’s your evidence that Oswald brought CE143 into the theater?
I didn't say anything about CE134. This is just an attempt to change the subject, move the goalposts, and shift the burden of proof.

I didn’t make a truth claim requiring a burden of proof.
"X is a possible" is a "truth statement," even if it's not a definite statement. Something is possible, or it is not. You are saying that it is....without giving us any reason to seriously consider it a possibility.

It is technically possible that a revolver suddenly appeared in Oswald's hand due to an utterly freak quantum entanglement event. Should we seriously consider this possibility? Of course not.


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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #398 on: October 15, 2023, 07:31:33 PM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #399 on: October 15, 2023, 10:33:58 PM »
If Oswald was the Tippit shooter, then what reason to carry a revolver into the theater and KEEP that revolver on his person even as DPD entered the theater from all directions.

An LN might suggest that the reason was that Oswald was in a state of mind that was basically “”fight or flight”, from having just killed Tippit about 25 minutes earlier, so possibly thinking of a final shootout with cops if Oswald was trapped.

But Oswald is also supposed to be this cool and calculating man who shot JFK so it’s seems inconsistent he wasn’t able to calculate getting rid of incriminating evidence like the revolver and the 2 types of bullets, and NOT to leave shells at  ( and his wallet too??) at the Tippit scene.

Even if it could be proved that Oswald was a schizophrenic / bipolar mental case , the 1:15 DOA time stamp and Bowleys 1:10 watch time stamp place the  Tippit shooter having to be shooting Tippit at about 1:07 pm which pretty much exonerates Oswald being the shooter anyway.

From my CT perspective, and because of what appears to be an impossibility of Oswald able to even get to 10th and Patton by 1:07 pm, there are only a few  alternatives to consider imo:

1. Oswald went directly  to the theatre for no other reason than to just watch a movie. It’s uncertain if he would have carried a revolver or not on his person, but if he’s so unconcerned about the magnitude of the events that day to just casually be going to see a movie then he also possibly could have gone to Brewers store just to look at some shoes.  This kind of behavior , however, would suggest Oswald had an extremely unsympathetic attitude about the magnitude of the events that day.

2. Oswald went directly to the theater for a purpose other than just to see a movie. The reason most probable is to meet someone. The purpose of the meeting uncertain, but such scenario leads to the idea that Oswald was involved somehow  with either FBI or CIA as an operative so it would not be implausible he would carry a revolver as a standard defensive posture.