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Author Topic: Q9  (Read 8069 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2023, 09:30:35 AM »
You are getting very close.

CE399 did enter " base first".

How? And why, would a bullet enter " base first"?
Not the normal trajectory of a bullet.
What caused that?

And whom did it enter?

The answer is easy.

Happy hunting!

 :D :D :D

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Re: Q9
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2023, 09:30:35 AM »

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: Q9
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2023, 12:52:01 PM »
Has Gary Murr come up with the solution to this mystery? He says the fragments were originally one piece but had to be broken up by the FBI for their lab tests. See 11 minutes in the this video:

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2023, 05:17:42 PM »
Has Gary Murr come up with the solution to this mystery? He says the fragments were originally one piece but had to be broken up by the FBI for their lab tests. See 11 minutes in the this video:

Really interesting interview, Gerry.
I think Murr's theory covers a lot of the issues raised surrounding Q9 but not all of them and he leaves some seriously unanswered points.
The basic outline is as follows:
Gregory removed multiple fragments from JBC's wrist but the FBI only received a single fragment.
Bill Stinson (JBC's senior aide) or some other faction of the Connally party, removed some fragments
Frazier receives a single fragment, but this fragment is cut up for NAA analysis, which is why it now appears as four fragments.

The main sticking point is the notion that "Connally's party" removed fragments before it was sent on to the FBI.
In the video below ex-State Trooper Bob Nolan recounts the day's events.
He was stood in the hallway near the emergency rooms with Bill Stinson (who he sometimes refers to as Stinton).
A nurse approaches Stinson, who is dressed in a doctor's white overcoat, saying to him she has a bullet that came off JBC's gurney.
Stinson says to give it to Nolan (who is in his State Trooper's uniform).
Nolan sticks it in his pocket and there it stays until he puts it on Fritz's desk.
As far as Murr's theory goes, it's interesting that Stinson is the first to be offered the bullet but it's also interesting that the envelope goes straight in Nolan's pocket, without anything being removed.

It would also be good to have confirmation that Q9 was cut up for NAA analysis.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 09:50:30 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Q9
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2023, 05:17:42 PM »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2023, 11:09:53 PM »
In this thread I have highlighted a mystery surrounding the origins of Q9, that the documentation appears to consist of two different narratives - one about a single fragment and one about multiple fragments. The more information I came across regarding this aspect of the case the more confusing it appeared to become.
I have recently come across this article by Robert Harris which has resolved this mystery to a very large extent:
It reveals that three separate events relating to bullet/bullet fragments took place in Parkland on the day of the assassination:

1) 12:30pm to 1:00pm

A bullet, or large fragment of a bullet, falls from Connally's stretcher as he is moved onto the operating table.
This is the relevant passage from Harris' article:

But there is an even better reason why we can be quite certain that CE399 was not the bullet that wounded Governor Connally. The real bullet was found on the second floor and recovered by a nurse, who then passed it on to officer Bobby Nolan, who then delivered it to the Dallas Police department. The confirmation of this begins with Governor Connally. This is from his autobiography entitled, "In History's shadow".

"..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.

There was enormous significance to that scrap of metal, but I can't be certain how many years later I understood the importance of it. I have always believed that three bullets found their mark. What happened in the hospital demonstrated how easily a bullet could have been swept aside and lost..

What the governor obviously didn't realize however, is that the bullet was not "swept aside". Certainly, the nurse who recovered it would not have just discarded the most important piece of forensic evidence she had ever handled. As it turned out, the Dallas District attorney arrived at the hospital, eager to find out how his old friend, Governor Connally was doing. It seems that he arrived at about the same time that the surgery on the governor was completed, when he ran into that same nurse who found the bullet. This is from an interview of Dallas District attorney, Henry Wade, by the Dallas Morning News.

I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.

Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?

A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet.

The nurse promptly carried out the district attorney's instructions, passing the bullet to the nearest uniformed officer in sight, who happened to be Dallas Hwy Patrolman, Bobby Nolan, who was standing in the hallway talking to Connally aide, Bill Stinson. This is from my interview of Nolan in 2010.

I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney. Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"

Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?

Nolan: I don't know. It was a  - they told me that it was a bullet. And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything."

Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.

Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.

Nolan delivered the bullet to the Dallas Police department that evening, and the next morning, was interviewed by the FBI, who reported (emphasis is mine), Bobby M. Nolan, Texas highway patrolman, Tyler district, was interviewed relative to a bullet fragment removed from the left thigh of Governor Connally, which was turned over to him at Parkland Hospital in Dallas for delivery to the FBI.

Nolan leaves the bullet fragment on Fritz's desk which is taken by Vince Drain to the FBI lab in Washington. Frazier assigns the Q-number for this single fragment, Q9, but records it as having come from Connally's arm and not his thigh.

2)  1:00pm - 1:30pm

Darrell Tomlinson discovers a bullet on a stretcher, he alerts O P Wright about it who then passes it on to SA Johnsen. Wright describes it as a "hunting slug" with a pointed tip. When testifying, Tomlinson is adamant he found the bullet on a stretcher that could not have been used by Connally. As Harris notes:

"The only logical conclusion which can be drawn from this evidence is that the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher in front of the rest room door had nothing to do with the assassination. Parkland was (and is) the largest hospital in Dallas and processes hundreds of gunshot victims every year. Doctor McClelland testified that Parkland,

"receives all of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number of that type patient almost daily".

But it appears that the FBI didn't think about that when they received the stretcher bullet at their labs on Friday night."

This bullet had nothing to do with the assassination. The evidence and arguments outlining this can be found in the "A time to receive and give (CE399)" thread. The upshot is that the hunting slug with the pointed tip was substituted at the FBI lab for what we now know as CE399.

3) 16:00pm to 17:00pm

Dr Gregory operates on Connally's wrist. He removes four small fragments of metal from the wrist during the operation. These fragments are processed by the Supervising Nurse, Audrey Bell. The fragments are placed in a transparent plastic container which is then placed in an envelope and marked "Bullet Fragments". This envelope is handed to two plain-clothed federal agents, most probably the two FBI agents who stopped Nolan in the basement car-park of the DPD and tried to obtain the large bullet fragment he had been given by the nurse in Parkland while he talked to Bill Stinson.

At some point during the day Trooper Nolan has the bullet (or large fragment of a bullet} from Connally's thigh in his pocket.
SA Johnsen has the hunting slug with the pointed tip in his pocket.
An unknown FBI agent has the four fragments from Connally's wrist in his pocket.

The key point to understanding what happened in the FBI lab in Washington is that the bullet (fragment) that came from Connally's thigh and fell off his stretcher as he was being moved, cannot have come from the Mannlicher Carcano.
If it had it would have been trumpeted as most important piece of evidence connecting Oswald to the assassination. As it was, it disappeared and was replaced with the four small fragments taken from Connally's wrist by Gregory.
The hunting slug was replaced by CE399.
Documentation is created to give the impression of some kind of misunderstanding regarding the bullet from Connally's thigh.
Tomlinson reports that he was warned by the FBI to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he found.
Wright mysteriously forgets to mention the bullet he gave to SA Johnsen in a report for Jack Price, the hospital administrator.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 11:11:33 PM by Dan O'meara »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2023, 07:04:35 AM »
The documented evidence and witness testimony regarding Q9 reveal two narratives - one about a single fragment from Governor Connally's thigh, the other about multiple fragments removed from his wrist.
The problem for the FBI was this - how to transform the bullet that fell from Connally's gurney while he was being lifted onto the operating table, into the four small bullet fragments removed from his wrist by Dr. Gregory.
The first step was an FBI report by SA J. Doyle Williams dated 30th November.

"Doctor Charles Francis Gregory, Parkland Hospital, stated
he and Doctor Tom Shires and other staff physicians performed
surgery on Governor John Connally on November 22, 1963.
He states surgery was performed by him on the Governor's
right arm, and that he removed from the arm a small fragment
of metal. He stated the metal fragment was placed into a
transparent container for preservation, and that during the
operation, he recalled no other pieces or bits of metal being
removed from the Governor's body.
Doctor Gregory stated Surgery Supervisor Audrey Bell
took custody of the fragment of metal removed from the
Governor's arm, and that the ultimate disposition of the metal
which was considered to be of possible evidentiary value, could
best be explained by Miss Bell . He stated he did not on his
own knowledge know, however, but he had been advised [that]
Miss Bell obtained a receipt from State Trooper Bob Nolan
[a State of Texas highway patrol officer] and transferred the
metal fragment to him in accordance with instructions from
the Governor's office at Parkland Hospital."

The report is supposed to be an interview with Doctor Gregory specifically about the operation he performed on Connally's wrist. Note, these are not Gregory's words, he did not sign off on this, these are his words as reported (invented) by SA Williams.
Why this interview was necessary is never made clear, the FBI didn't feel the need to interview other doctors about the specifics of their surgical procedures.
The first glaring error is the constant use of the word "fragment" - singular. It is mentioned four times. Apparently, Gregory "stated" that only one fragment was removed from Connally's wrist and that "he recalled no other pieces or bits of metal being removed from the Governor's body."
This cannot be true, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, Gregory's operative notes, made on the day of the assassination, make it clear that multiple fragments were removed from Connally's wrist:

"...Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound and wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up and have been submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."

This is is clear reference to multiple fragments. The phrasing, that these fragments were encountered at "various" levels "throughout" the wound, indicates there were more than two fragments recovered. Audrey Bell, in her HSCA and ARRB interviews believes four fragments were removed from the wrist. Q9, as it exists in the evidence today, consists of four fragments.
Gregory removed four fragments from Connally's wrist. Why, then, would he tell SA Williams that he only removed a single fragment, why would he insist that no other fragments were removed?
The answer is simple - he never told Williams anything of the sort. It is a fabrication designed to steer the narrative.

These are the two narratives:

1) Connally reports a bullet falling from his gurney as he is being lifted onto the operating table. He hears it hit the floor and observes a nurse picking it up and putting it in her pocket.
Wade, visiting his old friend in Parkland, reports a nurse approaching him with a bullet which had fallen from Connally's gurney and asking him what to do with it. He tells her to give it to a police officer which she agrees to do.
Bob Nolan reports a nurse coming up to him and Bill Stinson with a bullet from Connally's thigh which had fallen from his gurney. It is in a small envelope. The envelope is 2 by 3 inches and is blank. Nolan delivers the envelope to Fritz's desk.

2) Gregory removes four tiny fragments from Connally's wrist, these fragments are placed in a small "shot glass" and placed on the scrub nurses desk. Bell transfers the fragments to a small, transparent plastic container for preservation as they are transported to the pathology department.
As she is in her office processing the fragments, an FBI agent enters and takes custody of the fragments which are in a box inside an envelope. This is the box and envelope which eventually become part of Warren Commission Exhibit 842.

How do we "mash" these two narratives together?
The key is that in each narrative there is a nurse who, at some point, has possession of the bullet/fragments.
The simplest thing to do is to make these two different nurses the same person.
So the nurse who approaches Bob Nolan is now Audrey Bell.
This is how the deception in the FBI report works.

"[Doctor Gregory] stated he did not on his
own knowledge know, however, but he had been advised [that]
Miss Bell obtained a receipt from State Trooper Bob Nolan
[a State of Texas highway patrol officer] and transferred the
metal fragment to him in accordance with instructions from
the Governor's office at Parkland Hospital."

Note how vague the source of this information is.
We have already seen that SA Williams has invented words supposedly spoken by Dr Gregory, but in this part of the report the information isn't even from Gregory.
It says Gregory "had been advised" that Bell had given the "fragment" to Nolan as "he did not on his own knowledge know..."
It could not be any more vague but the idea has been planted - whatever Dr. Gregory removed from Connally's wrist was given to State Trooper Nolan by Audrey Bell.
That is the lie this report is trying to sell.
Any confusion over whether it was a single fragment or multiple fragments can be glossed over. All that matters is that it was Bell who gave the envelope to Nolan.
Something we know for a fact didn't happen.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 08:16:32 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Q9
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2023, 07:04:35 AM »