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Author Topic: Q9  (Read 7814 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2023, 01:32:33 PM »
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Audrey Bell was not mistaken about the number of fragments. Those four in CE-842 are fragments that Dr. Gregory removed from the wrist. Bell was mistaken about who she passed the fragments to though. It was Nolan and he had to have been out of uniform. That was not uncommon for Texas Highway Patrolmen back then. Gregory never specified in his operative report of Nov 22 as to how many fragments that he removed. He just wrote that "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound and these were wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up". According to Gregory, one of the Pre-OP X-Rays appeared to show seven or eight.

CE-843 contains two fragments, not three.



Hi Tim, I was grateful you cleared up the error I made about CE 843, and I'm glad to get a chance to return the favour,
When Gregory is referring to the seven or eight fragments, he is referring to bone fragments:

Dr GREGORY: "...[X-ray]"A" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.
Mr. Specter: What do you mean by comminuted?
Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones.
Mr. Specter:How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion?
Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that.


In his WC testimony, Gregory refers to two metallic fragments he removed from JBC. He uses a pre-op X-ray and a post-op X-ray to make his point:



In the pre-op X-ray we can see a larger fragment with a small particle next to it.
In the post-op X-ray they are gone.
The picture of CE 842 which has the envelope and the rectangular clear plastic container. In the container are two fragments - a larger one and a small particle. These two fragments are Q9, even though Frazier believes it is a single fragment.



The problem is that the picture of Q9 in the National Archive has four fragments. A larger one and three smaller ones.
It appears the small particle has disappeared and been replaced by 3 slightly larger fragments.
These 3 additional fragments cannot have come from JBC's wrist, so where have they come from?

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Re: Q9
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2023, 01:32:33 PM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Q9
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2023, 02:09:31 AM »
Hi Tim, I was grateful you cleared up the error I made about CE 843, and I'm glad to get a chance to return the favour,
When Gregory is referring to the seven or eight fragments, he is referring to bone fragments:

Dr GREGORY: "...[X-ray]"A" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.
Mr. Specter: What do you mean by comminuted?
Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones.
Mr. Specter:How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion?
Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that.


In his WC testimony, Gregory refers to two metallic fragments he removed from JBC. He uses a pre-op X-ray and a post-op X-ray to make his point:



In the pre-op X-ray we can see a larger fragment with a small particle next to it.
In the post-op X-ray they are gone.
The picture of CE 842 which has the envelope and the rectangular clear plastic container. In the container are two fragments - a larger one and a small particle. These two fragments are Q9, even though Frazier believes it is a single fragment.



The problem is that the picture of Q9 in the National Archive has four fragments. A larger one and three smaller ones.
It appears the small particle has disappeared and been replaced by 3 slightly larger fragments.
These 3 additional fragments cannot have come from JBC's wrist, so where have they come from?

Thank you for pointing out my error to me. I stand corrected. Regarding the question on the number of fragments in CE-842, you should be wary of using the poor quality photocopy for determining the number of fragments in that exhibit. I think that your yellow labelling has hidden the other two tiny fragments from view.


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2023, 02:34:33 AM »
Thank you for pointing out my error to me. I stand corrected. Regarding the question on the number of fragments in CE-842, you should be wary of using the poor quality photocopy for determining the number of fragments in that exhibit. I think that your yellow labelling has hidden the other two tiny fragments from view.



I discounted the other "fragment" for two reasons.
Firstly, the X-rays I posted show that two fragments have been removed from JBC's leg - a larger one and s small particle.
The two fragments Gregory testified to removing.
I assumed the fragments I labeled were these two fragments as the other "fragment" appears as just a straight line in the pic I was using:



But in the pic you posted it does appear as two separate things.
Which makes things even more baffling.
The FBI report states that Gregory only removed one fragment.
Frazier labels Q9 as a single fragment and states in his WC testimony Q9 is a single fragment.
When Frazier found three small fragments on the limo floor he labeled them as three fragments, not a single fragment. Why would he list four fragments from JBC's arm as a single fragment?
Gregory testifies that he removed two fragments.
The X-rays show he removed two fragments.
Audrey Bell states she received "perhaps 4" fragments.
The picture in the National Archives shows four fragments.

WTF is going on??

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Re: Q9
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2023, 02:34:33 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Q9
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2023, 02:59:28 AM »
I discounted the other "fragment" for two reasons.
Firstly, the X-rays I posted show that two fragments have been removed from JBC's leg - a larger one and s small particle.
The two fragments Gregory testified to removing.
I assumed the fragments I labeled were these two fragments as the other "fragment" appears as just a straight line in the pic I was using:



But in the pic you posted it does appear as two separate things.
Which makes things even more baffling.
The FBI report states that Gregory only removed one fragment.
Frazier labels Q9 as a single fragment and states in his WC testimony Q9 is a single fragment.
When Frazier found three small fragments on the limo floor he labeled them as three fragments, not a single fragment. Why would he list four fragments from JBC's arm as a single fragment?
Gregory testifies that he removed two fragments.
The X-rays show he removed two fragments.
Audrey Bell states she received "perhaps 4" fragments.
The picture in the National Archives shows four fragments.

WTF is going on??

Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments. Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four. There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation. That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself. Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2023, 10:23:55 AM »
Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments. Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four. There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation. That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself. Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.



Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments.

Could you cite where he says this because in his WC testimony he is adamant he removed just two.
He points to three metal fragments in the pre-op X-ray then points out the two that have been removed in the post-op X-ray and states that he removed the two fragments that are missing from the post-op X-ray.

Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four.

Agreed

There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation

Yeah, Gregory states that in his WC testimony. But I'm not 100% sure what point you're making.

That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

To be honest, Tim, this just sounds like something you're making up.
As far as this aspect of the case is concerned, there is no evidence to support this and strong evidence to refute it.
The pre-op X-ray clearly shows a larger fragment and a "satellite" fragment near it. Any other fragments the same size as the "satellite" fragment would have shown up as well.
Are you basing this statement on any kind of evidence?

The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself.

Could you cite where this is as I can't find it.

Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.

Again, I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that Frazier simply missed three of the Q9 fragments because they were so small, and that is why he referred to Q9 as a single fragment?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2023, 10:25:06 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Q9
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2023, 10:23:55 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Q9
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2023, 08:59:42 PM »
Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments.

Could you cite where he says this because in his WC testimony he is adamant he removed just two.

Dr. GREGORY - A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gregory2.htm

Quote
That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

To be honest, Tim, this just sounds like something you're making up.
As far as this aspect of the case is concerned, there is no evidence to support this and strong evidence to refute it.
The pre-op X-ray clearly shows a larger fragment and a "satellite" fragment near it. Any other fragments the same size as the "satellite" fragment would have shown up as well.
Are you basing this statement on any kind of evidence?

The fragments are so tiny that Audrey Bell could not make them out in the photocopy image of them during her ARRB interview. You failed to see two of them yourself. I'm not making anything up.

Quote
The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself.

Could you cite where this is as I can't find it.

I already showed you once. Here it is again:



Quote
Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.

Again, I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that Frazier simply missed three of the Q9 fragments because they were so small, and that is why he referred to Q9 as a single fragment?

I'm saying that Frazier did similar to what Audrey Bell did. The large fragment stands out. The other three are so tiny that they were ignored by Frazier.

What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway? CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.




Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Q9
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2023, 10:15:53 AM »
Dr. GREGORY - A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gregory2.htm

The fragments are so tiny that Audrey Bell could not make them out in the photocopy image of them during her ARRB interview. You failed to see two of them yourself. I'm not making anything up.

I already showed you once. Here it is again:



I'm saying that Frazier did similar to what Audrey Bell did. The large fragment stands out. The other three are so tiny that they were ignored by Frazier.

What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway? CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.



What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway?

Although both JFK and JBC were shot through with the same bullet, I do not believe that bullet was CE 399.
It is my opinion that the bullet passed through both men and fragmented upon impact with JBC's wrist.



Above is a picture of a wrist bone through which a bullet has traveled.
I understand it, it makes sense to me - the bullet has impacted the bone and as it has travelled through the bone it has removed the bone out of the way leaving a hole where bone used to be. It seems obvious, to me at least, that in order for the bullet to travel through the bone, it has to move the bone out of the way. This leaves a hole where the bullet has traveled, as in the picture above.


(originally posted by Jerry Organ)

I don't understand this picture.
How has the bullet traveled through the bone without moving it out of the way? Where is the hole?
I could understand it if the bullet entered the wrist from directly above and passed btween the two main bones of the arm. But that's not what happens. The bullet impacts the radius from the side and, apparently, passes through one of the most dense bones in the body and exits through the crease of the wrist. The transit of the bullet is from one side of the radius to the other, without moving the bone out of the way.

There are no bullet fragments in JBC's chest even though one of his ribs was obliterated. But there are multiple fragments related to the wrist injury. I wanted to understand the wrist injury in more detail, particularly how many fragments were removed/remained in the wrist.
Immediately I came across the FBI report [11/30/63] stating Gregory removed one fragment and no other bits of metal and then Gregory's operative record revealing the he removed multiple fragments. The more information I found the more confusing things became. So now I'm just trying to unravel what was going on with the fragments.

By the way, I don't buy your heavily pixelated picture supposedly revealing two more fragments.
I don't buy that there were fragments that didn't show up in the many X-rays but were still mysteriously present.
I also don't buy that Frazier receives a package stating that it contains "fragments" (plural), but only notices one fragment in the transparent plastic case. Or that, months later, he still testifies that Q9 is a single fragment.

CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.

It most certainly does. Four fragments in total - even though only two were removed from JBC's wrist.

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Re: Q9
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2023, 10:15:53 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Q9
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2023, 11:47:51 PM »
What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway?

Although both JFK and JBC were shot through with the same bullet, I do not believe that bullet was CE 399.

Why not?

Quote
It is my opinion that the bullet passed through both men and fragmented upon impact with JBC's wrist.

What are you basing that opinion on?

Quote


Above is a picture of a wrist bone through which a bullet has traveled.
I understand it, it makes sense to me - the bullet has impacted the bone and as it has travelled through the bone it has removed the bone out of the way leaving a hole where bone used to be. It seems obvious, to me at least, that in order for the bullet to travel through the bone, it has to move the bone out of the way. This leaves a hole where the bullet has traveled, as in the picture above.

The bullet that struck that wrist was travelling at near muzzle velocity. That's why the damage is so severe and the hole is so obvious.

Quote

(originally posted by Jerry Organ)

I don't understand this picture.
How has the bullet traveled through the bone without moving it out of the way? Where is the hole?
I could understand it if the bullet entered the wrist from directly above and passed btween the two main bones of the arm. But that's not what happens. The bullet impacts the radius from the side and, apparently, passes through one of the most dense bones in the body and exits through the crease of the wrist. The transit of the bullet is from one side of the radius to the other, without moving the bone out of the way.

When the bullet struck that bone it was travelling well below muzzle velocity. The bone was moved out of the way. And while the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there.


Quote
There are no bullet fragments in JBC's chest even though one of his ribs was obliterated. But there are multiple fragments related to the wrist injury.

The reason that fragments were deposited in the wrist is because the bullet struck it base end forward. Lead that was extruding from the flattened bullet broke off.

Quote
I wanted to understand the wrist injury in more detail, particularly how many fragments were removed/remained in the wrist.
Immediately I came across the FBI report [11/30/63] stating Gregory removed one fragment and no other bits of metal and then Gregory's operative record revealing the he removed multiple fragments. The more information I found the more confusing things became. So now I'm just trying to unravel what was going on with the fragments.

By the way, I don't buy your heavily pixelated picture supposedly revealing two more fragments.
I don't buy that there were fragments that didn't show up in the many X-rays but were still mysteriously present.
I also don't buy that Frazier receives a package stating that it contains "fragments" (plural), but only notices one fragment in the transparent plastic case. Or that, months later, he still testifies that Q9 is a single fragment.

CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.

It most certainly does. Four fragments in total - even though only two were removed from JBC's wrist.

Explain the conflicting information contained in the following two images.





You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want, but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments. Those fragments were removed from Connally's wrist by Dr. Gregory, as confirmed by Audrey Bell.