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Author Topic: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage  (Read 14588 times)

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2023, 06:03:02 PM »
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Just too bad that the Danish authorities have released information that, in the days prior to the explosions, a Russian ship was sighted near the site.

So much for "common sense"

Imagine a Russian ship in the Baltic in "the days prior to the explosion"!  I guess that resolves the issue.  Nothing to see and no need to apply logic.  HA HA HA.  We finally have an example of what a contrarian accepts to be conclusive evidence of a fact.  Something never provided in the JFK assassination.

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2023, 06:03:02 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2023, 07:20:22 PM »
Doesn't prove anything.

No one doubts that Russia has the capability an opportunities. The problem is they lack a motive and they even tried unsuccessfully to repair the pipelines. They've also been more outspoken than other countries in calling for an international investigation.

Do you even know the story? I seriously doubt it.

Having said that, of course does the presence of that particular Russian ship not prove it was the Russians. It just means that the Russians can not be ruled out as you seem to be so eager to do.


Imagine a Russian ship in the Baltic in "the days prior to the explosion"!  I guess that resolves the issue.  Nothing to see and no need to apply logic.  HA HA HA.  We finally have an example of what a contrarian accepts to be conclusive evidence of a fact.  Something never provided in the JFK assassination.


You don't even know what kind of ship it was and as per usual you talk about things you know absolutely nothing about.

I don't consider the ship's presence conclusive evidence of anything. That just you, making stuff up again.

Here, read (or try to) and learn;

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65461401

or watch a video, if you prefer;

« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 08:31:05 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2023, 08:24:55 PM »
Do you even know the story? I seriously doubt it.

You don't even know what kind of ship it was and as per usual you talk about things you know absolutely nothing about.


I've read articles about it. Saw photos of the Russian ship. It's not proof of anything.

I also can't prove that Biden ordered the pipeline sabotage. I just intuitively believe it was the US based on motive, means, and opportunity.

I documented in this thread how the US has opposed the German-Russian pipelines for almost 20 years.

Hersh and others noted how Biden said he would "end nord stream" if Russia invaded Ukraine. When asked "how" he would do that, he didn't give an answer. That press conference happened shortly before Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

So whether you agree with my conclusion or not, the US is and should be a suspect...

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2023, 08:24:55 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2023, 08:34:52 PM »
I've read articles about it. Saw photos of the Russian ship. It's not proof of anything.

I also can't prove that Biden ordered the pipeline sabotage. I just intuitively believe it was the US based on motive, means, and opportunity.

I documented in this thread how the US has opposed the German-Russian pipelines for almost 20 years.

Hersh and others noted how Biden said he would "end nord stream" if Russia invaded Ukraine. When asked "how" he would do that, he didn't give an answer. That press conference happened shortly before Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

So whether you agree with my conclusion or not, the US is and should be a suspect...

So whether you agree with it or not, the Russians can not be ruled out either...

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2023, 09:37:22 PM »
So whether you agree with it or not, the Russians can not be ruled out either...

Anything is possible but let's say I view the Russians among the least likely suspects in this case.

The NY Times and other western news outlets reported months ago that the intelligence agencies have little evidence pointing to Russian culpability for what it's worth:

Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2023, 09:37:22 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2023, 11:24:31 PM »
Anything is possible but let's say I view the Russians among the least likely suspects in this case.

The NY Times and other western news outlets reported months ago that the intelligence agencies have little evidence pointing to Russian culpability for what it's worth:

Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html

Anything is possible but let's say I view the Russians among the least likely suspects in this case.

And what makes your theory superior to other theories? Let me be clear, I haven't got a clue who was really behind it, nor do I really care. But the mere fact that you can't think of a possible motive for Russia being responsable isn't very convincing.

You don't find it remarkable that several Russian Navy ships equiped for underwater operations were seen near the location of the explosions? Just a coincidence, perhaps?


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2023, 12:04:00 AM »

You don't find it remarkable that several Russian Navy ships equiped for underwater operations were seen near the location of the explosions? Just a coincidence, perhaps?

Let me throw that back at you.

Do you honestly believe:

A) that Russia would use their own naval ship to destroy infrastructure in waters patrolled by several NATO countries without expecting to get caught?

and

B) that NATO wasn't surveilling the movements of the Russian naval ship nine months ago when the sabotage happened?

You'd have to be naïve to believe the above two points.

And yes, the lack of a motive weighs heavy in my conclusion that it probably wasn't Russia. They spent billions to build both pipelines and lost what little leverage they had over Germany when the pipelines were destroyed.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2023, 12:04:38 AM by Jon Banks »

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2023, 12:04:00 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Sy Hersh: Biden ordered German pipeline sabotage
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2023, 01:10:17 AM »
Let me throw that back at you.

Do you honestly believe:

A) that Russia would use their own naval ship to destroy infrastructure in waters patrolled by several NATO countries without expecting to get caught?

and

B) that NATO wasn't surveilling the movements of the Russian naval ship nine months ago when the sabotage happened?

You'd have to be naïve to believe the above two points.

And yes, the lack of a motive weighs heavy in my conclusion that it probably wasn't Russia. They spent billions to build both pipelines and lost what little leverage they had over Germany when the pipelines were destroyed.

Answering a question with a question is a clear sign of weakness and a typical strategy for not wanting to answer the question simply because you don't like the obvious answer.

Quote
Do you honestly believe:

A) that Russia would use their own naval ship to destroy infrastructure in waters patrolled by several NATO countries without expecting to get caught?

and

B) that NATO wasn't surveilling the movements of the Russian naval ship nine months ago when the sabotage happened?

You'd have to be naïve to believe the above two points.


Of course NATO was surveilling the movements of Russian ships. Having said that, I believe Putin is capable of anything, but you are right it would be a bit stupid but so was invading Ukraine as well....

Putin is very much aware that idiots like Trump blurred the lines between actual reality and desired alternative reality. Nowadays you can get away with much as long as you put enough spin on it and convince enough people that your BS is actually true. Against that background it doesn't really matter if NATO saw the Russian ships or not. Propaganda is the game of the moment.

Quote
And yes, the lack of a motive weighs heavy in my conclusion that it probably wasn't Russia. They spent billions to build both pipelines and lost what little leverage they had over Germany when the pipelines were destroyed.

Russia made a very stupid miscalculation. They figured that the West would continue to be dependent on their oil and gas after they invaded Ukraine. Instead, it exposed a weakness the EU countries needed to deal with and they now have found other sources of supply. They are already fully stocked up for the next winter and Russia now has to sell it's oil and gas at rock bottom prices to the few countries that still want to deal with them. Meanwhile gas prices in Europe have been dropping to below pre-covid days.

Putin may well have spent billions of those pipelines, but only one was ever functional and there is very little chance that the EU countries will ever trust Russia again. With that in mind, the two pipelines had no real value for Russia anymore, so why not blow them up and create another "look what they are doing to us", just like the drones over the Kremlin hoax?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2023, 01:30:53 AM by Martin Weidmann »