Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: When the SN was built  (Read 25066 times)

Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5015
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2023, 08:55:26 PM »
Advertisement
who claims to have proven

you haven't actually proven those things

Stop babbling and make up your mind. Did I, or did I not, claim to have proven either?

Asks the same guy who claims to have proven that Oswald "didn't come down the stairs" and that Day didn't mention the prints to anyone.

Says the guy who, for the past 7 months now, has failed to prove that Oswald did come down the stairs and now also can not prove that Day told anybody about the print he allegedly lifted from the rifle.


Btw, in the part of Day's interview for the Sixth Floor Museum, Oral History Collection, in 1996, Day claims that he showed Drain where the print he lifted from the rifle had been. He states;

And I told him at the time, there‟s a print here. I showed him where it is, where it was.

which implies that there must have been residue of the print on the weapon. Yet, when the FBI examined the rifle, a few hours later, they found no print or residue.

How Day can show Drain something that the FBI lab said wasn't there is beyond me.

So is it possible to prove something didn't happen or not?  I'm losing track.  You are all over the place. 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2023, 08:55:26 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7407
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2023, 09:24:39 PM »
So is it possible to prove something didn't happen or not?  I'm losing track.  You are all over the place.

You've lost track a very long time ago.

You can't even prove that something did happen.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 10:06:06 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10812
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2023, 09:47:05 PM »
In his interview with Bob Porter, Lt. Day mentions a "3 by 5" card", probably a standard size card for most prints. The palm print was lifted with 2" wide tape, so the paper it was mounted on was non-standard.

This illustrates nicely that "Day said so" (especially 33 years later) doesn't make something correct.

Summary from Pat Speer of how Day's story evolved through the years:

--------
1. 11-29-63--4-22-64 Lt. Day's initial story regarding the rifle is that he removed the wood stock after noticing a print going under the wood stock down at the bottom of the barrel near the trigger guard, and that he then discovered a print that had been completely covered by the wood stock near the firing end of the barrel. He says he then lifted this print, and was pressured into turning the rifle over to the FBI before he could photograph both what remained of this print and the other print on the barrel he hadn't even started to work on.

2. 9-9-64 Lt. Day stops claiming he removed the wood stock from the rifle after noticing a print on the barrel by the trigger guard. As this print was not lifted by Day nor developed by the FBI, the FBI's failure to observe or document this print was quite a problem, and its disappearance from Day's story within days of the FBI's telling the Warren Commission they found evidence supporting Day's claim CE 637 was lifted from the rifle... is quite the coincidence.

3. 9-9-64 Lt. Day names the person he claims pressured him into discontinuing work on the rifle, and it's Chief of Police Jesse Curry.

4. 10-18-77 Lt. Day begins claiming it was the print down by the end of the barrel--the print he claimed he lifted--that he observed before removing the wood stock. This is quite the change considering he originally claimed this print was completely covered by the wood stock.

5. 10-18-77 Lt. Day also begins claiming it was Capt. Will Fritz, as opposed to Chief Jesse Curry, who pressured him into discontinuing work on the rifle.

6. 10-18-77 Lt. Day also begins claiming he told FBI agent Vincent Drain about the print on the underside of the rifle barrel before handing him the rifle on 11-22-63.

7. 1993 Lt. Day begins claiming it was Capt. George Doughty who pressured him into discontinuing work on the rifle, as opposed to Curry and Fritz.

8. 1993 Lt. Day also begins claiming he not only told Vincent Drain about the print on the underside of the barrel, but pointed out its location.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2023, 09:47:05 PM »


Offline Zeon Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2023, 04:02:04 AM »
Is Charles certain about this 12:15 time stamp for the Bronson film clip of the box on the SN window ledge?

For years it’s been stated that the Bronson film
sequence showing the box was approx 12:25

Is a siren ambulance arriving for the epileptic man enough to cause a  shooter to completely abandon his plan to use a (theoretically) previously prepared SE window , and move hastily with rifle in hand and STAND close to a wide open SW window ?

The “gun holding” person (imo) would not need to have gotten as close as 3-5 ft to the SW window to be able to see that no motorcade had yet entered Dealey plaza.

One siren and the shooter is apparently over reacting and he wanted to know the source of that siren, thus he had to move to within 5ft to be able to have LOS to that  source which was the ambulance below in front of the TSBD entrance?

He must have  forgotten momentarily that he had his rifle displayed and being that close to a fully open window would allow a potential LARGE no. of Persons gathered in Dealey plaza to have LOS to himself and the rifle?

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3588
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2023, 11:29:52 AM »
Is Charles certain about this 12:15 time stamp for the Bronson film clip of the box on the SN window ledge?

For years it’s been stated that the Bronson film
sequence showing the box was approx 12:25

Is a siren ambulance arriving for the epileptic man enough to cause a  shooter to completely abandon his plan to use a (theoretically) previously prepared SE window , and move hastily with rifle in hand and STAND close to a wide open SW window ?

The “gun holding” person (imo) would not need to have gotten as close as 3-5 ft to the SW window to be able to see that no motorcade had yet entered Dealey plaza.

One siren and the shooter is apparently over reacting and he wanted to know the source of that siren, thus he had to move to within 5ft to be able to have LOS to that  source which was the ambulance below in front of the TSBD entrance?

He must have  forgotten momentarily that he had his rifle displayed and being that close to a fully open window would allow a potential LARGE no. of Persons gathered in Dealey plaza to have LOS to himself and the rifle?


The time of 12:15 is based on my memory (which is not always accurate) of what Arnold Rowland said and the time stamps on the DPD tapes. James indicated a time of 12:23 which I think is reasonable because it must have taken a little time to attend to the patient and get him onboard the ambulance.

It is just a possible theory which would explain (to me at least) Arnold Rowland’s alleged sighting of a man with a rifle. You can disagree with the theory. I am not offering it as anything more than conjecture.



Edit: My memory seems to be pretty good regarding the time:


Mr. Rowland.  …There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area. I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.   



DPD Channel II:

12:15 pm  Station break.

531-9 On Cedar Springs off Turtle Creak.


http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 12:01:34 PM by Charles Collins »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2023, 11:29:52 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2023, 11:58:15 AM »
He must have  forgotten momentarily that he had his rifle displayed and being that close to a fully open window would allow a potential LARGE no. of Persons gathered in Dealey plaza to have LOS to himself and the rifle?

And what exactly would be the problem here, Mr. Mason?

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2023, 12:04:11 PM »
Edit: My memory seems to be pretty good regarding the time:


Mr. Rowland.  …There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area. I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.   



DPD Channel II:

12:15 pm  Station break.

531-9 On Cedar Springs off Turtle Creak.

Actually it shows Mr. Rowland's memory to be exceptionally good. He was a brilliant witness, only not for the WC. Explains Mr. Specter's exasperation, I guess!  Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2023, 12:04:11 PM »


Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3588
Re: When the SN was built
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2023, 12:43:10 PM »
Actually it shows Mr. Rowland's memory to be exceptionally good. He was a brilliant witness, only not for the WC. Explains Mr. Specter's exasperation, I guess!  Thumb1:


Mrs. Rowland straightened things out:


Mr. BELIN. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in the southwest corner window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw anyone else on the sixth floor?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.
.
.
.
Mr. BELIN. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything that your husband says?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says.
Mr. BELIN. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but---
Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that answer it?
Mr. BELIN. I think it does.
Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.