The Floor-Laying Crew


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Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2023, 11:22:14 AM »
Well, lots of things 'appear' to you, Mr. Collins, but they are little more than products of wishful thinking.

Mr. Norman himself states he and Messrs. Williams & Jarman avoided the sixth floor because they knew it would be noisy, due to ongoing flooring work. This noise, he further states, did not abate until the time of the motorcade. Mrs. Henderson's observation of men appearing to be at work tallies with this perfectly.

Mr. Norman's information about men (non-employees) staying up on six beyond the employees' usual lunch hour also means we can stop pretending that Mr. Arnold Rowland's bald, plaid-shirt-wearing 'elderly Negro' was the 18-year-old Bonnie Ray Williams: he was a member of the outside floor crew.

And Mr. Rowland's simultaneous sighting of a man over on the west end (which was where the flooring work was being done) now makes new sense: that man too was a member of the outside floor crew.   

Likely? Lol.

Both of the men with Mr. Norman (Messrs. Jarman & Williams) were part of the internal manual crew helping out with the flooring project. Like all the other members of that internal crew, they had broken for lunch---together. It is beyond ridiculous to suggest that Messrs. Jarman & Williams would have decided in advance to avoid six because they expected Messrs. Arce, Lovelady, Shelley & Givens to continue working up there through the lunch break, or would have believed that the continuing noise from six was being made by them.

Mr. Norman had worked at the Depository since 1961. No way would he confuse Messrs. Arce, Lovelady, Givens, Williams and Jarman with "outside contractors". If they had been Depository men brought over from the warehouse, he would have known so and said so. He expressly draws a distinction between the outside contractors and those Depository employees who helped out with the moving of boxes, etc. Indeed, he on occasion had himself helped out (pre-11/22) when order-filling demand was slow. He met this outside crew. You think he just hallucinated the leader of the outside contractor team whom he describes as "rugged-looking", 6'2"-6'3", 210-220 pounds? Does that sound like Mr Bill Shelley to you? And you think Mr. Norman didn't know Mr. Shelley's name?

The outside work crew weren't strangers-------they were familiar faces. That's the point, and it leaves you and your Warren Gullible pals bereft of one of your favorite talking points  Thumb1:


There were over seventy people who worked in the Elm Street TSBD building on 11/22/63. None of them said a single word about any “outside work crew” laying down plywood on the sixth floor. There were hundreds of people gathered outside the Elm Street TSBD building in Dealey Plaza for the time period before the motorcade arrived (in which Alan Ford claims there was noisy work going on on the sixth floor. Yet not one of the hundreds of witnesses said a single word about any noisy work going on during the time period in question, not a single witness. The work crew laying plywood on the sixth floor has been identified as employees of the TSBD, some of them normally worked at the other warehouse. The TSBD work crew members all confirmed that they were the ones laying the plywood in their testimonies and affidavits.

Sorry Alan Ford, but your fantasy “outside work crew” is just that … a fantasy.

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2023, 11:22:14 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2023, 02:29:07 PM »

There were over seventy people who worked in the Elm Street TSBD building on 11/22/63. None of them said a single word about any “outside work crew” laying down plywood on the sixth floor.

Lol. How many of these people were working in the publishers' offices? And how many members of that subset ever even visited the sixth floor in the course of a working day? How many would have known any personnel details for the floor-laying project, beyond (at best) the fact that it was happening, and the various manual worker faces they'd been seeing about the place? These folks saw manual workers come and go all the time.

But here we have a man (Mr. Norman) who was a manual Depository worker, knew all the guys, and was au fait with what was going on up on six and what had been going on up on five. And he tells us in plain words that the floor-laying project was led by an outside team, with an internal Depository team helping out.

If your only refutation of Mr. Norman's recollection is that some secretary on the third floor doesn't know the details Mr. Norman knows, then you really are in trouble............

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There were hundreds of people gathered outside the Elm Street TSBD building in Dealey Plaza for the time period before the motorcade arrived (in which Alan Ford claims there was noisy work going on on the sixth floor. Yet not one of the hundreds of witnesses said a single word about any noisy work going on during the time period in question, not a single witness.

~Grin~ You do know, don't you, that the acoustic relationship to the sixth floor is different for someone on the floor than for someone down on the street? Yes? And that there was other noise (incl. other noisy construction work) going on in Dealey Plaza at the time? Yes?

And how many people out on the street were asked if they'd noticed any noise from an upper floor of the Depository? Did anyone even think to ask? Hm?

Besides, lots of people had already gathered before the Depository crew broke for lunch. How many of them said a single word about any noisy work going on during that time period? And what does that big fat zilcho prove exactly?

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The work crew laying plywood on the sixth floor has been identified as employees of the TSBD, some of them normally worked at the other warehouse.

Ah, "some of them". Who, exactly, Mr. Collins? All you've got is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr. Danny Arce. Messrs. Givens, Lovelady and Shellley were based at 411 Elm. So your "some of them" amounts to two out of five. Yikes!

And---no less to the point---Mr. Norman knows all these men's names. Yet, in his Sixth Floor Oral Interview, he cannot identify by name a single member of what he is calling the outside crew. This proves that the outside crew he is talking about is not made up of any of the people in the internal (Depository-employee) helper crew.

And you still haven't told us who you think might be the "rugged-looking" white man (6'2"-6'3"/210-220 pounds) whom Mr. Norman recollects as the chatty leader of the external crew. Mr. Bill Shelley??

Mr. Collins, you are of course free to continue your rather desperate attempts to explain away what Mr. Norman is saying, but frankly all you're doing is embarrassing yourself..........

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« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 02:40:58 PM by Alan Ford »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2023, 03:38:42 PM »
Lol. How many of these people were working in the publishers' offices? And how many members of that subset ever even visited the sixth floor in the course of a working day? How many would have known any personnel details for the floor-laying project, beyond (at best) the fact that it was happening, and the various manual worker faces they'd been seeing about the place? These folks saw manual workers come and go all the time.

But here we have a man (Mr. Norman) who was a manual Depository worker, knew all the guys, and was au fait with what was going on up on six and what had been going on up on five. And he tells us in plain words that the floor-laying project was led by an outside team, with an internal Depository team helping out.

If your only refutation of Mr. Norman's recollection is that some secretary on the third floor doesn't know the details Mr. Norman knows, then you really are in trouble............

~Grin~ You do know, don't you, that the acoustic relationship to the sixth floor is different for someone on the floor than for someone down on the street? Yes? And that there was other noise (incl. other noisy construction work) going on in Dealey Plaza at the time? Yes?

And how many people out on the street were asked if they'd noticed any noise from an upper floor of the Depository? Did anyone even think to ask? Hm?

Besides, lots of people had already gathered before the Depository crew broke for lunch. How many of them said a single word about any noisy work going on during that time period? And what does that big fat zilcho prove exactly?

Ah, "some of them". Who, exactly, Mr. Collins? All you've got is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr. Danny Arce. Messrs. Givens, Lovelady and Shellley were based at 411 Elm. So your "some of them" amounts to two out of five. Yikes!

And---no less to the point---Mr. Norman knows all these men's names. Yet, in his Sixth Floor Oral Interview, he cannot identify by name a single member of what he is calling the outside crew. This proves that the outside crew he is talking about is not made up of any of the people in the internal (Depository-employee) helper crew.

And you still haven't told us who you think might be the "rugged-looking" white man (6'2"-6'3"/210-220 pounds) whom Mr. Norman recollects as the chatty leader of the external crew. Mr. Bill Shelley??

Mr. Collins, you are of course free to continue your rather desperate attempts to explain away what Mr. Norman is saying, but frankly all you're doing is embarrassing yourself..........

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If your only refutation of Mr. Norman's recollection is that some secretary on the third floor doesn't know the details Mr. Norman knows, then you really are in trouble............


As Mr. Spock would say: that’s not logical. But this certainly is: If your only source (out of hundreds of witnesses, seventy something who work in the TSBD building) is Norman’s “interview” (which you haven’t provided a link to by the way). Then you “truly” (pun intended) are in deep doo doo.


Y ou do know, don't you, that the acoustic relationship to the sixth floor is different for someone on the floor than for someone down on the street? Yes? And that there was other noise (incl. other noisy construction work) going on in Dealey Plaza at the time? Yes?

The sound would be different but still apparent outside in Dealey Plaza. And heck no, there was no other noisy construction work going on in Dealey Plaza just prior to the motorcade arrival that I am aware of.


And how many people out on the street were asked if they'd noticed any noise from an upper floor of the Depository? Did anyone even think to ask? Hm?


The vast majority of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza soon learned the shots came from the TSBD. If any of them had heard any noisy construction work going on in the TSBD just prior to the arrival of the motorcade. I believe that they surely would have said something about it without being asked. But not one of the hundreds of witnesses there said a word about any noisy construction work going on at that time. Even the woman who you claim said the men on one of the uppers floors (she doesn’t even specify which floor, but you somehow “know” that it just HAD to be the sixth flloor) looked like they were working (but also looking out the window) didn’t say anything about noisy construction work going on at that time.



Besides, lots of people had already gathered before the Depository crew broke for lunch. How many of them said a single word about any noisy work going on during that time period? And what does that big fat zilcho prove exactly?

Relatively few people were gathered in Dealey Plaza before the workers broke for lunch. And they didn’t necessarily have to be making a lot of noise at that point in time. The work involved moving boxes, laying the plywood, nailing the plywood down to the existing flooring, and cutting a few pieces of plywood as needed. Only the last two items create significant noise. Plus, they could have been just discussing things.


Ah, "some of them". Who, exactly, Mr. Collins? All you've got is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr. Danny Arce. Messrs. Givens, Lovelady and Shellley were based at 411 Elm. So your "some of them" amounts to two out of five. Yikes!

Based on memory, that sounds about right to me. So what are you “yiikesing” about?   ???



And---no less to the point---Mr. Norman knows all these men's names. Yet, in his Sixth Floor Oral Interview, he cannot identify by name a single member of what he is calling the outside crew. This proves that the outside crew he is talking about is not made up of any of the people in the internal (Depository-employee) helper crew.


Is that all you have, this supposed interview that, again, you haven’t provided a link to? Again, if there really was some “outside crew” that Norman didn’t know the names of the members. Then why didn’t anyone else mention this. Not a single soul said a word about it (including Norman). The witness testimonies typically ended with the WC interviewer asking for any other information that the witness thought might be helpful. Not one of the witnesses who potentially would have know about an “outside crew” said a single word about this fantasy idea of yours. Doo doo getting deeper for you…..



And you still haven't told us who you think might be the "rugged-looking" white man (6'2"-6'3"/210-220 pounds) whom Mr. Norman recollects as the chatty leader of the external crew. Mr. Bill Shelley??


Again, you haven’t provided a link to this interview of Norman. Who do I think it might be? Mr fantasy!  ::)



Mr. Collins, you are of course free to continue your rather desperate attempts to explain away what Mr. Norman is saying, but frankly all you're doing is embarrassing yourself..........


LOL.  :D


Take a look in the mirror if you want to see what embarrassed looks like….   :-\

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2023, 03:38:42 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2023, 07:37:13 PM »
Now! There are two rather curious aspects of Messrs. Norman & Jarman's fifth floor visit:

1. Why did Messrs. Norman & Jarman leave it so late to change their location for the parade? Mr. Norman's testimony timestamps their arrival up there as late as ~12:28pm!

2. Why did they choose to go to the fifth rather than the sixth floor?

Mr. Norman's information--------as furnished in his interviews with the Sixth Floor Museum and with Mr. Glen Sample---------answers both of these questions at a stroke. Going up to five, and at the last minute, reflected no impulsive change of mind: it was the pre-agreed plan. Who wants to spend most of their lunch break to a soundtrack of banging, sawing, etc. from just one floor above?

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« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 07:39:02 PM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2023, 07:49:59 PM »
This photograph, taken from the SW side of the sixth floor, gives an idea of what the floor-laying deal looked like. Cleared space, cable for machinery.



Mr. Arnold Rowland of course saw one of the two men (not the 'elderly Negro') near here

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2023, 07:49:59 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2023, 10:23:25 PM »
Detail from Dillard photo, showing SW window of sixth floor just after the shooting-------------------------


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2023, 10:35:23 PM »
From Mr. Charles Givens' 11/22 affidavit:



There is no word of a lie in Mr. Givens' statement here. And that is the key point: every one of the men up on the sixth floor working on the floor-laying project, both internal crew and outside crew, was supposed to be there. There were no 'strangers' in the building. But, unbeknownst (we presume) to the Depository employees helping out up on six, there were assassins---------for whom the floor-laying project provided cover

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Re: The Floor-Laying Crew
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2023, 10:35:23 PM »


 

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