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Author Topic: A time to receive and give (CE399)  (Read 25209 times)

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2023, 06:46:20 PM »
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is claimed by JRT to be a bullet that was fired by the murder weapon.

This is simply not true. Johnsen and Rowley failed to identify the bullet and neither man as well as Todd could possibly have known which rifle fired that bullet.

....And yet, we still have Wright on record as saying the bullet he was given by Tomlinson was pointed, which CE399 clearly isn't. We have SA Odum denying that he ever showed CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright which means the FBI lied to the WC in CE2011. And we don't have a shred of evidence to confirm that CE399 was ever in Parkland Hospital, as there is no chain of custody for it.

They don't have to be able to recognize it to prove a chain of custody.  Todd marked it so we know that Todd received CE399. Each said that they delivered the only bullet in their possession.  So if Todd didn't switch it, that means Rowley had CE399. If Rowley didn't switch it, then Johnsen had it.  If Johnsen didn't switch it, then Wright had it. If Wright didn't switch it, then Tomlinson had it. If Tomlinson didn't switch it, then CE399 was the bullet he found after it fell from the stretcher at Parkland.  So unless one of those five switched it, CE399 was the stretcher bullet.

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But let's take a closer look at this case;

There is not a shred of evidence that there was a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/21/63

There is no evidence that supports the assumption that Oswald brought the MC rifle into the TSBD on 11/22/63, but there are two witnesses who described the bag Oswald carried in such a way that it was clearly to small to conceal a broken down rifle.
Lots of circumstantial evidence that Oswald took his rifle to the TSBD on 11/22/63.  It doesn't matter where it was on 11/21/63.  But the place where it had been kept was in the green-brown blanket in the Paine garage.  When she saw that it wasn't there, Marina began to fear the worst.

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There is no evidence that Oswald was actually on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired.
There is lots of circumstantial evidence from which one can infer that he fired the shots and that the shots came from the 6th floor. That puts him on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination.
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There is no evidence that Oswald came down the stairs within 75 seconds after  the last shot and managed to do so unnoticed by anybody, despite the fact that several women on the 4th floor were close to the stairs at that time.
There is no evidence that confirms that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor had actually been fired that day
There is no chain of custody for the bullet CE399 that confirms it was indeed the bullet found by Tomlinson at Parkland hospital.
Even Dr. Humes, when asked during his testimony, stated he did not believe CE399 could have gone through Kennedy and Connally and come out is the condition it is in.
The rifle was used to fired 100 test bullets and not a single one came even close the being in the same condition CE399 is in.
There is no evidence to confirm that the bullet fragments given to Frazier at the Secret Service garage actually came from the Presidential limo. Frazier was simply told they did.
There is serious doubt about the so-called Walker bullet now in evidence as CE573 being the bullet that was actually recovered from General Walker's home.
You seem to think that every fact has to be independently and all by itself proven beyond a reasonable doubt, without regard to any other facts. Facts are proven by the totality of the evidence.

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The bottom line is obvious; either Oswald did it alone or there was a conspiracy.
I would agree that if there was a conspiracy, Oswald was involved and was the shooter.  I would also add that I don't see any evidence of a conspiracy or any reason to believe that conspirators would have chosen Oswald to carry out the plan.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2023, 06:46:20 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #177 on: March 11, 2023, 08:19:02 PM »
They don't have to be able to recognize it to prove a chain of custody.  Todd marked it so we know that Todd received CE399. Each said that they delivered the only bullet in their possession.  So if Todd didn't switch it, that means Rowley had CE399. If Rowley didn't switch it, then Johnsen had it.  If Johnsen didn't switch it, then Wright had it. If Wright didn't switch it, then Tomlinson had it. If Tomlinson didn't switch it, then CE399 was the bullet he found after it fell from the stretcher at Parkland.  So unless one of those five switched it, CE399 was the stretcher bullet.

The purpose of a chain of custody is to authenticate a piece of evidence. It needs to be proven that the evidence presented hasn't been manipulated and is the same as the evidence recovered from the crime scene. You can not assume that evidence is authentic unless it is proven not to be. That's the world upside down. Johnsen didn't follow procedure by not placing the bullet he received from Wright in a sealed evidence envelope (which were available at Parkland) and mark it. Instead he put it in his pocket. Nobody knows what happened to the bullet from the moment Johnsen received it and Rowley gave it to Todd.

Is it just a coincidence that it was the Secret Service who gave both the Parkland bullet and the fragments allegedly found in the Presidential limo to the FBI after, in both cases, not following the correct evidentiary procedure? It also was the Secret Service who, ignored the law and took the body of the President and the Presidential limo to Washington before anybody in Dallas could examine either.

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Lots of circumstantial evidence that Oswald took his rifle to the TSBD on 11/22/63.  It doesn't matter where it was on 11/21/63.  But the place where it had been kept was in the green-brown blanket in the Paine garage.  When she saw that it wasn't there, Marina began to fear the worst.

There is no circumstantial evidence at all that Oswald took any rifle to the TSBD on 11/22/63. All there is, are assumptions based on hot air. The whole "Oswald took the rifle to the TSBD" is a flawed theory based on the one hand on the presumed presence of a rifle Ruth Paine's garage and on the other hand on the alleged presence of a bag in the sniper's nest which is believed he used to carry the rifle in. The only two witnesses who actually saw Oswald carry a bag described an entirely different bag and when Frazier was shown the SN bag on Friday evening he instantly denied that it was the bag he had seen. So, not only does the theory make a giant leap to reach a "conclusion" but it also ignores actual evidence that undermines that conclusion.

Of course it matters where the rifle was on 11/21/63, because if it wasn't in Ruth Paine's garage than Oswald couldn't have made the trip to Irving to get it and, as he stayed at the Paine residence from the moment of his arrival until his departure the next day, Oswald wouldn't have been able to get the rifle from elsewhere.

The story about the rifle in the blanket comes from one source only; Marina, who is not the most reliable witness to say the least. And even she didn't get beyond saying that, about a week after leaving New Orleans, she got curious about what was in the blanket. So, in late september she pulled back part of it and saw what she believed to be the wooden stock of a rifle. Even if one assumes that she did indeed see a rifle in that blanket, there is no evidence that it was the rifle that was later found at the TSBD, there is no evidence who the rifle belonged to and there is nothing, except wishful thinking, to conclude that this same rifle was still in that blanket some two months later, when Oswald is supposed to have picked it up.


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There is lots of circumstantial evidence from which one can infer that he fired the shots and that the shots came from the 6th floor. That puts him on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination.

Enlighten me, what is this circumstantial evidence you are talking about? I mean factual evidence from which something can indeed be inferred and which can actually be used in a credible way to connect the dots and not just one assumption piled on another!

The Warren Commission didn't even bother to present factual or circumstantial evidence to show that Oswald was on the 6th floor. They just assumed it to be the case and presented it as such in their report. I would argue that there is more circumstantial evidence that places Oswald on the 1st and 2nd floor at the time of the shooting than there ever was for him being on the 6th floor.

You seem to think that every fact has to be independently and all by itself proven beyond a reasonable doubt, without regard to any other facts. Facts are proven by the totality of the evidence.

No, I don't think that every fact has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt by itself, but I do think that the individual facts which are used to connect the dots a narrative in a circumstantial case should at least be provable factual. Building a circumstantial case based on mere assumptions is like building a house of cards without a foundation.

I have given you a small part of a much bigger list of all sorts of things for which there is not a shred of evidence. You can not prove a fact by a "totality of evidence" that simply doesn't exits.

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I would agree that if there was a conspiracy, Oswald was involved and was the shooter.  I would also add that I don't see any evidence of a conspiracy or any reason to believe that conspirators would have chosen Oswald to carry out the plan.

There is no doubt in my mind that if there was a conspiracy Oswald must have been involved to some extent for the simple reason that you can not manipulate somebody who is completely uninvolved. I agree with you that the conspirators probably wouldn't have relied on Oswald to carry out their plan but he would make a perfect patsy!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 03:31:21 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #178 on: March 11, 2023, 10:50:02 PM »
The purpose of a chain of custody is to authenticate a piece of evidence. It needs to be proven that the evidence presented hasn't been manipulated and is the same as the evidence recovered from the crime scene. You can not assume that evidence is authentic unless it is proven not to be. That's the world upside down. Johnsen didn't follow procedure by not placing the bullet he received from Wright in a sealed evidence envelope (which were available at Parkland) and mark it. Instead he put it in his pocket. Nobody knows what happened to the bullet from the moment Johnsen received it and Rowley give it to Todd.
Ultimately, one has to rely on people to provide the evidence. If you assume all people are lying you won't accept any evidence. As I said, we seem to inhabit different universes.

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There is no circumstantial evidence at all that Oswald took any rifle to the TSBD on 11/22/63.
His rifle was found there. There is unchallenged evidence that he took a long unmeasured package to work. That's all you need. That is circumstantial evidence.

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There is no doubt in my mind that if there was a conspiracy Oswald must have been involved to some extent for the simple reason that you can not manipulate somebody who is completely uninvolved. I agree with you that the conspirators probably wouldn't have relied on Oswald to carry out their plan but he would make a perfect patsy!
You are convinced of a conspiracy yet you cannot point to any evidence of a conspiracy let alone evidence as to who was involved. If we live in the same universe, it appears that we speak different languages.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #178 on: March 11, 2023, 10:50:02 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #179 on: March 11, 2023, 11:28:33 PM »
Ultimately, one has to rely on people to provide the evidence. If you assume all people are lying you won't accept any evidence. As I said, we seem to inhabit different universes.

What are you really saying? That Johnsen and/or Rowley couldn't possibly be involved in a high level conspiracy because they are law enforcement? Really? Are you actually this naive?

I don't assume that all people are lying, although some do in just about every case, but I am also not foolish enough to believe that witness testimony is always reliable. As a lawyer you seem to be willing to ignore that the chain of custody's sole purpose is to protect the authenticity of the evidence against possible manipulation by law enforcement.

If you are willing to accept evidence simply because a cop said so, then we are indeed living in different universes. I can't help but notice that you are willing to overlook the problem caused by the way Johnsen and Rowley handled the bullet. Why is that?

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His rifle was found there. There is unchallenged evidence that he took a long unmeasured package to work. That's all you need. That is circumstantial evidence.

For starters, it is in no way certain that it was Oswald's rifle that was found at the TSBD. The only evidence that links Oswald tentatively  to any rifle are easy to manipulate photocopies of a Klein's order form, a money order and an envelope, allegedly in his handwriting, taken from a microfilm which since has mysteriously been lost, just as the original documents. As the order document is in name of A. Hidell, it can not be ruled out that Oswald was manipulated to fill out the documents. In any case, we only have the word of an FBI handwriting expert that it is Oswald's handwriting on the forms in the first place. The most troubling part, as far as I am concerned, is that the rifle ordered was a 36" and the rifle found at the TSBD was a 40". Nothing seems to match up and most of the "evidence" is extremely vague to say the least.

As for the "unmeasured package", that's not really true, is it now? Frazier described it as being held by Oswald in the cup of his hand and under his armpit. Randle said she saw Oswald carry the package next to his leg and it didn't reach the ground. Frazier showed FBI agents to where on the backseat the package reached from the door and they measured it at 27". Although the package itself was not physically measured, these descriptions make it beyond clear that the package couldn't have been long enough to conceal a rifle.

All this is circumstantial evidence that contradicts your circumstantial evidence, but you seem willing to ignore it all.

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You are convinced of a conspiracy yet you cannot point to any evidence of a conspiracy let alone evidence as to who was involved. If we live in the same universe, it appears that we speak different languages.

No, I am not convinced of a conspiracy. Unlike you, who seems to be convinced Oswald did it alone, I don't know what really happened. Unlike you, I am willing to consider both possibilities and I am more than happy to be convinced either way by actual evidence. What I do not accept are flawed assumptions to create a narrative that has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

As for me pointing to any evidence of a conspiracy, we first have to determine which conspiracy we are talking about. On the one hand there is the one which planned and executed the assassination and on the other hand there is the cover up after the fact. For the first, it will probably be impossible after all this time to find any evidence but for the second one I've already provided you with several examples.

If there is one thing that I am convinced of by now, it is that after Oswald's death the evidence was shaped in such a way that it wrapped tightly around him as the lone gunman, regardless of his guilt or innocence.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 05:15:24 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #180 on: March 12, 2023, 06:51:01 PM »
What are you really saying? That Johnsen and/or Rowley couldn't possibly be involved in a high level conspiracy because they are law enforcement? Really? Are you actually this naive?

I don't assume that all people are lying, although some do in just about every case, but I am also not foolish enough to believe that witness testimony is always reliable. As a lawyer you seem to be willing to ignore that the chain of custody's sole purpose is to protect the authenticity of the evidence against possible manipulation by law enforcement.

A chain of custody is required to guard against accidents or mistakes that can happen within a busy police force where evidence from cases could get mixed up. It is not intended to guard against deliberate evidence tampering by police, nor does it.

It is apparent that the bullet found by Tomlinson did not get accidentally mixed up here because CE399 is definitely related to the C2766 rifle.

You seem to think that everyone has to be able to identify the bullet, months even years later. There is no expectation that Tomlinson or Wright should have put their initials on the bullet. Why should they be expected to identify it later? There is no reason for 3 Secret Service agents to put their initials on it.

Even if Johnsen had put his initial on it, that would not prove that he hadn't deliberately switched the bullet that Wright gave him.
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If you are willing to accept evidence simply because a cop said so, then we are indeed living in different universes. I can't help but notice that you are willing to overlook the problem caused by the way Johnsen and Rowley handled the bullet. Why is that?

I just don't have any evidence that leads me to suspect, let alone conclude, that Johnsen, Rowley or Todd fabricated evidence. Unless you have evidence that someone planted CE399 after Tomlinson, what reason would there be to find that Tomlinson did not find CE399?

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For starters, it is in no way certain that it was Oswald's rifle that was found at the TSBD. The only evidence that links Oswald tentatively  to any rifle are easy to manipulate photocopies of a Klein's order form, a money order and an envelope, allegedly in his handwriting, taken from a microfilm which since has mysteriously been lost, just as the original documents. As the order document is in name of A. Hidell, it can not be ruled out that Oswald was manipulated to fill out the documents. In any case, we only have the word of an FBI handwriting expert that it is Oswald's handwriting on the forms in the first place. The most troubling part, as far as I am concerned, is that the rifle ordered was a 36" and the rifle found at the TSBD was a 40". Nothing seems to match up and most of the "evidence" is extremely vague to say the least.
Some jurors had doubts that OJ Simpson was guilty. I didn't.

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As for the "unmeasured package", that's not really true, is it now? Frazier described it as being held by Oswald in the cup of his hand and under his armpit. Randle said she saw Oswald carry the package next to his leg and it didn't reach the ground. Frazier showed FBI agents to where on the backseat the package reached from the door and they measured it at 27". Although the package itself was not physically measured, these descriptions make it beyond clear that the package couldn't have been long enough to conceal a rifle.
You just admitted it was not measured.

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No, I am not convinced of a conspiracy. Unlike you, who seems to be convinced Oswald did it alone, I don't know what really happened. Unlike you, I am willing to consider both possibilities and I am more than happy to be convinced either way by actual evidence.
I am open to the possibility that there may be reliable, credible evidence somewhere of a conspiracy. But none has been found and it is highly improbable that any will be found.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #180 on: March 12, 2023, 06:51:01 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #181 on: March 12, 2023, 09:14:09 PM »
A chain of custody is required to guard against accidents or mistakes that can happen within a busy police force where evidence from cases could get mixed up. It is not intended to guard against deliberate evidence tampering by police, nor does it.

The chain of custody is the most critical process of evidence documentation. It is a must to assure the court of law that the evidence is authentic, i.e., it is the same evidence seized at the crime scene.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK551677/

This is exactly what I said all along. The chain of custody is required to authenticate the evidence by keeping it safe from any kind of manipulation. This is done by registering every person who handled that piece of evidence and retracing the chain of custody to it's origin. A piece of evidence can not be considered authentic when the chain of custody is broken or non-existent.

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It is apparent that the bullet found by Tomlinson did not get accidentally mixed up here because CE399 is definitely related to the C2766 rifle.

There is nothing apparent about it. It is in fact completely ignorant to say that CE399 matches C2766 and so Tomlinson must have found that bullet at Parkland.

Tomlinson may in fact have found a completely different bullet which in no way was related to C2766. In order to establish which bullet Tomlinson actually found you need an unbroken chain of custody. If - as you seem to suggest - a chain of custody is unimportant, why did the WC ask the FBI to authenticate a large number of pieces of evidence, including CE399?

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You seem to think that everyone has to be able to identify the bullet, months even years later. There is no expectation that Tomlinson or Wright should have put their initials on the bullet. Why should they be expected to identify it later? There is no reason for 3 Secret Service agents to put their initials on it.

You are correct that Tomlinson and Wright could not be expected to mark the bullet, but you are wrong about the three Secret Service agents. When Wright gave him the bullet, Johnsen should have marked it and started the chain of custody, at Parkland Hospital. He failed to do so, yet after his arrival in Washington he put his initial on an envelope allegedly containing the bullet now known as CE399. Why did Johnsen do this if - as you claim - there was no reason for him to do so?

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Even if Johnsen had put his initial on it, that would not prove that he hadn't deliberately switched the bullet that Wright gave him.

That's true. Which is why Wright's claim that he gave Johnsen a pointed bullet is so relevant. The only way the chain of custody would be able to authenticate the bullet was if Johnsen had put it in an evidence envelope at Parkland and sealed it in the presence of Wright. Johnsen made the mistake and can not expect that the bullet he gave to Rowley is authenticated simply by him saying that it is the same bullet.

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I just don't have any evidence that leads me to suspect, let alone conclude, that Johnsen, Rowley or Todd fabricated evidence. Unless you have evidence that someone planted CE399 after Tomlinson, what reason would there be to find that Tomlinson did not find CE399?

First of all, there is no assumption of evidence being authentic simply because manipulation can not be proven. It's the other way around. In order for evidence to be considered authentic it needs to be proven to be so. The WC did not ask the FBI for authentication for nothing. Secondly, Wright is on record saying that he gave Johnsen a pointed bullet, which CE399 clearly is not. That alone justifies the questioning of the authenticity of CE399. It's just too bad that nobody was willing to investigate Wright's claim after the book "Six seconds in Dallas" was released. One can only wonder why Specter introduced CE399 during Humes' testimony, subject to later authentication which of course never came, or why CE399 was never shown to Tomlinson when he testified...

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Some jurors had doubts that OJ Simpson was guilty. I didn't.

I'm not sure what this comment has to do with anything but I also believed OJ was guilty. Having said that, I did consider the jury verdict correct because the state failed to prove it's case.

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You just admitted it was not measured.

Word games! There are several ways of measuring an object. One of those is placing it next to another measurable object. It's really very simple. Frazier said that Oswald carried the package under his armpit and in the cup of his hand. There is nothing to suggest that this observation is not correct and that means there simply is no way that the package could have contained a much larger broken down MC rifle.

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I am open to the possibility that there may be reliable, credible evidence somewhere of a conspiracy. But none has been found and it is highly improbable that any will be found.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence! Where it comes to a possible conspiracy you seem to put the bar as high as you possibly can (by asking for reliable, credible evidence) but when it comes to Oswald being a lone gun man you keep the bar so low it nearly touches the ground and even then you can not produce "reliable, credible evidence" as we have just seen when to made a giant leap from a rifle that was possibly in Ruth Paine's garage to a paper bag that allegedly was found in the sniper's nest at the TSBD. Why the double standard?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2023, 04:58:22 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #182 on: March 13, 2023, 04:45:20 AM »
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence!
This might be a bit of a quibble, but....

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. After all, if something doesn't exist, then the would be no evidence of it existing. Absence of evidence is not absolute proof of absence, since there may be some as-yet-unknown fact sitting out there in the dark waiting to rear its ugly head when you least expect. However, in cases where complete information is available, then absence of evidence is absolute proof of absence.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #182 on: March 13, 2023, 04:45:20 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #183 on: March 13, 2023, 05:02:07 AM »
This might be a bit of a quibble, but....

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. After all, if something doesn't exist, then the would be no evidence of it existing. Absence of evidence is not absolute proof of absence, since there may be some as-yet-unknown fact sitting out there in the dark waiting to rear its ugly head when you least expect. However, in cases where complete information is available, then absence of evidence is absolute proof of absence.

This might be a bit of a quibble,

Yes it is.

However, in cases where complete information is available, then absence of evidence is absolute proof of absence.

Only in theory, because it can never been determined with 100% certainty that complete information is available in a particular case.