A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Martin Weidmann]

I've already laid out the reasons why one thing "would appear" a certain way and why I "suspect" another thing to be so. It appears that you can't engage with the arguments I made, and I suspect you would never be able to in any case. All you are able  to do now is push some lame sematic jabs that look more like sour grapes than an attempt to rebut what I've said.

So, you can not support your claims (regardless how you describe them) that Dolce was "simply a consultant" and "working under Olivier's supervision" and that the "WC engaged Edgewood via Olivier".

Got it!.

You may want to have a discussion based on pure speculation, which you can not support, but don't expect me to play along.

[John Iacoletti]

Your can choose to believe the physician who treated the wound and the x-rays created to facilitate this treatment, or you can choose to believe something said by another doctor who'd left the OR while the thigh surgery was being performed. A doctor who admitted that he "didn't examine [the thing wound] that closely, except for its general location." This shouldn't be a difficult choice.

But Shaw didn’t say in this contemporary clip that there was a wound that he didn’t examine and so he was presuming (based on what?) that a bullet was still in the leg. He said a bullet was still in the leg. That specific information would have come from somewhere specific to be so specific.

Besides, this whole “he didn’t actually inspect the wound” thing is a convenient argument given that all the subsequent medical “investigations” of Kennedy’s wounds were done by people who never examined the actual body.

[Mitch Todd]

So, you can not support your claims (regardless how you describe them) that Dolce was "simply a consultant" and "working under Olivier's supervision" and that the "WC engaged Edgewood via Olivier".

Got it!.

You may want to have a discussion based on pure speculation, which you can not support, but don't expect me to play along.

The current kerfluffle began when you decided, for reasons known to only you and God, to presume that:

1.) Edgewood had produced a report in early 1964

2.) It was shown to Specter before Olivier's and Dziemian's deposition

3.) And Specter saw that it contradicted his SBT

4.) So Specter suppressed it somehow

But you have been unable to provide a single shred of evidence that your presumptions are anything but your own presumptions. Just a few spastic stabs of wharrrrgarbl that mean nothing.

Yet you chide me for "want[ing] to have a discussion based on pure speculation, which you can not support.

Well, ain't that rich!!

Was Dolce "simply a consultant?" Yes! He said so himself: "Chief Consultant for the US Army in wound ballistics." A "chief consultant" is still a consultant. Again, Olivier was "Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch." Comparing the two titles, it's not hard to figure out who is the bigger dog in the pack here, even if we don't have the org chart in front of us. Further, as I've already noted, Dolce's own statements deal almost exclusively with the wrist tests, but not the skull, goat meat, or goat rib tests. This strongly implies unfamiliarity with these other tests, which in turn indicates that he wasn't involved in these tests, just the cadaver wrist ones.

Now, your evidence to support the notion that Dolce was anything other than a "consultant" to Olivier who was only involved in the wrist tests is.......?




 

[Martin Weidmann]

The current kerfluffle began when you decided, for reasons known to only you and God, to presume that:

1.) Edgewood had produced a report in early 1964

2.) It was shown to Specter before Olivier's and Dziemian's deposition

3.) And Specter saw that it contradicted his SBT

4.) So Specter suppressed it somehow

But you have been unable to provide a single shred of evidence that your presumption are anything but your own presumptions. Just a few spastic stabs of wharrrrgarbl that mean nothing.

Yet you chide me for "want[ing] to have a discussion based on pure speculation, which you can not support.

Well, ain't that rich!!

Was Dolce "simply a consultant?" Yes! He said so himself: "Chief Consultant for the US Army in wound ballistics." A "chief consultant" is still a consultant. Again, Olivier was "Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch." Comparing the two titles, it's not hard to figure out who is the bigger dog in the pack here, even if we don't have the org chart in front of us. Further, as I've already noted, Dolce's own statements deal almost exclusively with the wrist tests, but not the skull, goat meat, or goat rib tests. This strongly implies unfamiliarity with these other tests, which in turn indicates that he wasn't involved in these tests, just the cadaver wrist ones.

Now, your evidence to support the notion that Dolce was anything other than a "consultant" to Olivier who was only involved in the wrist tests is.......?

1.) Edgewood had produced a report in early 1964

Where did I say that?

2.) It was shown to Specter before Olivier's and Dziemian's deposition

Where did I say that?

What is absolutely true is that Specter screened all the medical and ballistic witnesses before anybody testified. Dolce was questioned by Specter on April 21st, 1964. One can only wonder why Specter talked to Dolce on that day, if he was merely a consultant. Also, during that conversation, at least some of the test results must have been known, don't you think? Otherwise they would have had nothing to talk about, right? According to Dolce, it was only after this meeting that Specter decided not to call him to testify and turned to Olivier and Dziemian. Again, one can only wonder why!

3.) And Specter saw that it contradicted his SBT

Well, let's see... During Olivier's testimony, Specter started with a lie;

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which has been heretofore in Commission proceedings identified as the bullet found on the stretcher of Governor Connally,

CE399 was never identified as the bullet found on Connally's stretcher!

Although it is true that Specter never asked Olivier directly if CE399 was the bullet that went through Kennedy and Connally, it is beyond obvious that if CE399 caused the wound on Connally's wrist, it must be the bullet that went through the two men. Why? Because (1) if it was any other bullet there would be no SBT and (2) no other bullet except CE399 was ever identified in relation to Connally's wrist wound.

In other words; when Specter asked Olivier;

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet 399 did cause the wound on the Governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. OLIVIER. I believe that it was. That is my feeling.

he clearly was actually asking him if CE399 is the single bullet that went through Kennedy and Connally and in doing so injured Connally's wrist.

That wasn't a finding of the Edgewood tests! But that didn't stop Specter from claiming that it was;

In chapter 3 of the Warren Report it says;

Additional experiments by the Army Wound Ballistics Branch further suggested that the same bullet probably passed through both President Kennedy and Governor Connally. (See app. X, pp. 582-585. ) Correlation of a test simulating the Governor's chest wound with the neck and wrist experiments.' indicated that course. After reviewing the Parkland Hospital medical records and X-rays of the Governor and discussing his chest injury with the attending surgeon, the Army ballistics experts virtually duplicated the wound using the assassination weapon and animal flesh covered by cloth.

and

Arsenal, Drs. Olivier and Arthur J. Dziemian, chief of the Army Wound Ballistics Branch, who had spent 17 years in that area of specialization, concluded that it was probable that the same bullet passed through the President's neck and then inflicted all the wounds on the Governor.317 Referring to the President's neck wound and all the Governor's wounds, Dr. Dziemian testified: "I think the probability is very good that it is, that all the wounds were caused by one bullet."

What other bullet than CE399 (which can't even be authenticated) is the bullet they were talking about? And where in their test results is their conclusion supported?

Btw, I don't think the date of March 1965 on the report is of major significance. Although I can not explain why that date is there to begin with, the actual report states that the work was started in April 1964 and ended in October 1964. But more importantly, I found two other Edgewood reports that are similar. One was written by Dr. Light and covered work started in March 1951 and completed in January 1961. The date on that report was September 1965 and December 1965 respectively.  The other report was written by Janice Mendelson and dated August 1966. Her report states that the actual work was done between July 1963 and October 1965.

[Mitch Todd]

But Shaw didn’t say in this contemporary clip that there was a wound that he didn’t examine and so he was presuming (based on what?) that a bullet was still in the leg. He said a bullet was still in the leg. That specific information would have come from somewhere specific to be so specific.

Besides, this whole “he didn’t actually inspect the wound” thing is a convenient argument given that all the subsequent medical “investigations” of Kennedy’s wounds were done by people who never examined the actual body.

But Shaw didn’t say in this contemporary clip that there was a wound that he didn’t examine and so he was presuming (based on what?) that a bullet was still in the leg.

So what? How does that invalidate what he testified to later on?


That specific information would have come from somewhere specific to be so specific

Again, so what? Shaw was aware of a single entry wound in the thigh, with no corresponding exit. That is specific information. Shaw making a reasonable assumption from the two facts he had at hand, that the projectile remained in the thigh, is specific as well.


Besides, this whole “he didn’t actually inspect the wound” thing is a convenient argument given that all the subsequent medical “investigations” of Kennedy’s wounds were done by people who never examined the actual body

The subsequent medical investigations had plenty of x-rays and photographs to work with. They also were staffed by specialists who were experienced and well-qualified in the field of medical forensic investigation, and had the time to go over the evidence carefully before reaching a conclusion. Those were luxuries that the Parkland and Bethesda practitioners simply lacked. In Connally's case, x-rays are available. Guess what? There is no bullet to be found. And we have the various testimonies and statements from Gregory and --especially-- Shires. Guess what? No evidence of a bullet remaining in the thigh from those two, either.

[John Iacoletti]

So what? How does that invalidate what he testified to later on?

I didn’t say it does. How does his later testimony show that his 11/22 statement was merely an assumption?

The subsequent medical investigations had plenty of x-rays and photographs to work with.

True — at least the ones that were given to them.

In Connally's case, x-rays are available. Guess what? There is no bullet to be found.

It could have been the bullet that Connally said hit the floor before Gregory’s surgery and subsequently “disappeared”.

[Mitch Todd]

1.) Edgewood had produced a report in early 1964

Where did I say that?

2.) It was shown to Specter before Olivier's and Dziemian's deposition

Where did I say that?

This has pretty much been the whole thrust of your arguments regarding Dolce. This is the most succinct statement of your scenario:

All I can say is that Dolce and his team were hired by the WC to do the tests and when the WC got their report they buried it and Dolce's testimony

You might want to quibble as to how exact my characterization of your position is, but is essentially correct.

What is absolutely true is that Specter screened all the medical and ballistic witnesses before anybody testified. Dolce was questioned by Specter on April 21st, 1964. One can only wonder why Specter talked to Dolce on that day, if he was merely a consultant. Also, during that conversation, at least some of the test results must have been known, don't you think? Otherwise they would have had nothing to talk about, right? According to Dolce, it was only after this meeting that Specter decided not to call him to testify and turned to Olivier and Dziemian. Again, one can only wonder why!

This is just a big chunk of presumption glued together by misapprehension.

Dolce said that "I appeared before the investigating team of the Warren Commission at the VA Building in Washington, D.C. on April 21, 1964. At that time, I reviewed all the X–rays and Zapruder film along with Governor Connally, his wife and his doctors." He didn't say that he testified at this meeting. Nor did he say that he had any conclusions to share going in. In fact, this sounds more like he was there to gather information, rather than disseminate it.

Table B1 in the Edgewood report shows that the firing tests commenced on April 27, 1964 and continued through May 11. In other words, when Dolce walked into the VA Building, none of the testing had even begun. This strengthens the idea that Dolce was there only to collect information that would be used to determine what sort of tests would be run. And it demolishes the any notion that Dolce "testified" as to any conclusions based on the tests.

3.) And Specter saw that it contradicted his SBT

Well, let's see... During Olivier's testimony, Specter started with a lie;

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which has been heretofore in Commission proceedings identified as the bullet found on the stretcher of Governor Connally,

CE399 was never identified as the bullet found on Connally's stretcher!

Although it is true that Specter never asked Olivier directly if CE399 was the bullet that went through Kennedy and Connally, it is beyond obvious that if CE399 caused the wound on Connally's wrist, it must be the bullet that went through the two men. Why? Because (1) if it was any other bullet there would be no SBT and (2) no other bullet except CE399 was ever identified in relation to Connally's wrist wound.

In other words; when Specter asked Olivier;

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet 399 did cause the wound on the Governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. OLIVIER. I believe that it was. That is my feeling.

he clearly was actually asking him if CE399 is the single bullet that went through Kennedy and Connally and in doing so injured Connally's wrist.

That wasn't a finding of the Edgewood tests! But that didn't stop Specter from claiming that it was;

In chapter 3 of the Warren Report it says;

Additional experiments by the Army Wound Ballistics Branch further suggested that the same bullet probably passed through both President Kennedy and Governor Connally. (See app. X, pp. 582-585. ) Correlation of a test simulating the Governor's chest wound with the neck and wrist experiments.' indicated that course. After reviewing the Parkland Hospital medical records and X-rays of the Governor and discussing his chest injury with the attending surgeon, the Army ballistics experts virtually duplicated the wound using the assassination weapon and animal flesh covered by cloth.

and

Arsenal, Drs. Olivier and Arthur J. Dziemian, chief of the Army Wound Ballistics Branch, who had spent 17 years in that area of specialization, concluded that it was probable that the same bullet passed through the President's neck and then inflicted all the wounds on the Governor.317 Referring to the President's neck wound and all the Governor's wounds, Dr. Dziemian testified: "I think the probability is very good that it is, that all the wounds were caused by one bullet."

What other bullet than CE399 (which can't even be authenticated) is the bullet they were talking about? And where in their test results is their conclusion supported?

In other words; when Specter asked Olivier;

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet 399 did cause the wound on the Governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. OLIVIER. I believe that it was. That is my feeling.

he clearly was actually asking him if CE399 is the single bullet that went through Kennedy and Connally and in doing so injured Connally's wrist.

That wasn't a finding of the Edgewood tests! But that didn't stop Specter from claiming that it was;

This is just sloppy thinking on your part. Specter's question encompasses both the case where the bullet passes through both JFK and Connally and the case where the bullet passes through just Connally. The degree of vagueness within the question may well have been by design, but it's still there. And again, there is no contradiction as to what Olivier testifies to and what is in the Edgewood report. Specter gets Dziemian to go a little further, but not much. The best Dr D can do is say that the "probability is very good that it is, that all the wounds were caused by one bullet," which is one of the two scenarios put forward in the report. Still he doesn't actually commit to that particular scenario. Dziemian's answer thus also does not contradict the Edgewood report's conclusions.

Btw, I don't think the date of March 1965 on the report is of major significance. Although I can not explain why that date is there to begin with, the actual report states that the work was started in April 1964 and ended in October 1964. But more importantly, I found two other Edgewood reports that are similar. One was written by Dr. Light and covered work started in March 1951 and completed in January 1961. The date on that report was September 1965 and December 1965 respectively.  The other report was written by Janice Mendelson and dated August 1966. Her report states that the actual work was done between July 1963 and October 1965.

Again, the report itself notes that the shooting didn't begin until April 27, 1964, six days after Dolce met the Connallys. This fact alone demolishes the idea that Dolce went into the VA Building on the 21st with any conclusions.

[Mitch Todd]

MT: So what? How does that invalidate what he testified to later on?

I didn’t say it does.

That is exactly what you are arguing, whether you realize it or not. Whether you want to admit it or not.

How does his later testimony show that his 11/22 statement was merely an assumption?

I've already said it: "[Shaw] admitted that he 'didn't examine [the thigh wound] that closely, except for its general location.'"

If Shaw didn't examine the wound other than noting its location, then he could not have known whether or not a bullet was still in the thigh.

MT:  In Connally's case, x-rays are available. Guess what? There is no bullet to be found.

True — at least the ones that were given to them.

And now, lacking any other evidence, all you can do is insinuate that something suspicious must have happened.

It could have been the bullet that Connally said hit the floor before Gregory’s surgery and subsequently “disappeared”.

Connally actually does say this in his autobiography. However, he also has a lot to say about what happened that day that he could not possibly have seen. And good deal of it is garbled or even wrong. He wrote that the Secret Service agents in the SS followup car immediately jumped out and ran to the front door of the TSBD "even as some in the crowd were still waving to the President"... which absolutely did not happen. He helpfully notes that "Many of my memories are secondhand" and "It is no longer possible to say with certitude how much of the race to Parkland I remember, and how much I have been told by Nellie, or picked up from watching news films or reading official reports." In short, he admits he might not be the most reliable narrator. At that time, he was suffering from severe blood loss, and was about to receive stout doses of anesthesia, neither of which are good for memory.