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Author Topic: A time to receive and give (CE399)  (Read 24714 times)

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2023, 04:46:35 PM »
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Translation: “my assumptions are automatically correct, and I’m going to project them to “anyone”, because of my narcissism”.

You start by putting words in my mouth, and end by calling me a narcissist. Classic!

The former is a strawman argument. The latter is just some childish name-calling, and really just an ad hominem smear.
Good job there, Mr Logic!

As for assumptions:

It's not an assumption to point out that Shaw said he never actually examined the thigh wound other than noting its position.

It's not an assumption to point out  that Gregory said that he tried to find a bullet in the thigh, but failed to do so.

It's not an assumption to point out that Shaw also could not find a bullet in the thigh when he performed surgery on the thigh wound

It's not an assumption to point out that the x-rays of Connally's thigh showed no bullet inside the governor's leg.
 
Given this, whatever assumptions that might be required to conclude that Shaw was simply mistaken are fewer and smaller than the constellation of assumptions required to assert that Shaw was correct, and that there was a bullet in Connally's thigh at the time of Shaw's press conference.

You didn’t. Bill Brown did and then you injected yourself into my response to him.

Ah, so now you're putting Bills words in my mouth. Mr Logic strikes again!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 04:56:20 PM by Mitch Todd »

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2023, 04:46:35 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2023, 07:18:00 PM »
Is it that you are so narcissistic that you think you are always right, even when you are not? Thumb1:

 Thumb1: Nailed it!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 07:28:30 PM by John Iacoletti »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2023, 07:28:07 PM »
As for assumptions:

It's not an assumption to point out that Shaw said he never actually examined the thigh wound other than noting its position.

It's not an assumption to point out  that Gregory said that he tried to find a bullet in the thigh, but failed to do so.

It's not an assumption to point out that Shaw also could not find a bullet in the thigh when he performed surgery on the thigh wound

It's not an assumption to point out that the x-rays of Connally's thigh showed no bullet inside the governor's leg.

Nor did I say they were. Speaking of strawmen…

Quote
Given this, whatever assumptions that might be required to conclude that Shaw was simply mistaken are fewer and smaller than the constellation of assumptions required to assert that Shaw was correct, and that there was a bullet in Connally's thigh at the time of Shaw's press conference.

No, the only assumption required is that Shaw was correct, and that there was a bullet in Connally's thigh at the time of Shaw's press conference.

But the key point is that I don’t claim to know which alternative is true. You do.

Quote
Ah, so now you're putting Bills words in my mouth. Mr Logic strikes again!

No, Einstein. My response to Bill was my response to Bill. It’s not all about you, narcissist. Maybe if you didn't jump in to try to be his proxy you would have realized that.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2023, 07:28:07 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2023, 09:07:10 PM »
MT:It's not an assumption to point out that Shaw said he never actually examined the thigh wound other than noting its position.
It's not an assumption to point out  that Gregory said that he tried to find a bullet in the thigh, but failed to do so.
It's not an assumption to point out that Shaw also could not find a bullet in the thigh when he performed surgery on the thigh wound
It's not an assumption to point out that the x-rays of Connally's thigh showed no bullet inside the governor's leg.


Nor did I say they were. Speaking of strawmen…
You completely failed to mention exactly what assumptions you thought I was making, so I worked with what I had.



MT: Given this, whatever assumptions that might be required to conclude that Shaw was simply mistaken are fewer and smaller than the constellation of assumptions required to assert that Shaw was correct, and that there was a bullet in Connally's thigh at the time of Shaw's press conference.

No, the only assumption required is that Shaw was correct, and that there was a bullet in Connally's thigh at the time of Shaw's press conference.
Not true. To assume that Shaw's statement is correct necessarily requires the simultaneous assumptions that Gregory's statements, Shires' statements, and the x-rays are all wrong.


But the key point is that I don’t claim to know which alternative is true. You do.

Go back and read what I wrote.

"Given this, whatever assumptions that might be required to conclude that Shaw was simply mistaken are fewer and smaller than the constellation of assumptions required to assert that Shaw was correct, and that there was a bullet in Connally's thigh at the time of Shaw's press conference."

If you were a little more careful, you'd notice I didn't say that my position is "true." I said that it required fewer assumptions. Shaw's statements are mutually exclusive of Gregory's, Shires' and the x-rays. Gregory's and Shires' statements are equivalent, and are equivalent with the x-rays. To say that Shaw is correct, them we have to assume that Gregory is incorrect. And assume that Shires is incorrect. And assume that the x-rays are incorrect. But to say that Shaw is incorrect, I only have to assume that Shaw was incorrect. The rest is up to Occam's Razor, etc.

Plus, if Shaw is incorrect, it's easy to explain why. He saw one hole in Connally's thigh, didn't see any other that could constitute an exit point, and so decided that the bullet entered but did not exit, remaining buried in the thigh. It's a simple and quite reasonable explanation, and requires minimal additional assumptions. However, If we assume that Shaw was right, then it becomes difficult to explain how Gregory, Shires, and the x-rays could have been wrong. Some conspiracy between the two surgeons, most likely involving others, would have to be presumed. That's direction presents quite an assumptive complex.

I already said this early on, but in a less formal way:

MT: You can choose to believe the physician who treated the wound and the x-rays created to facilitate this treatment, or you can choose to believe something said by another doctor who'd left the OR while [I shoulda said "before" rather than "while"] the thigh surgery was being performed. A doctor who admitted that he "didn't examine [the thing wound] that closely, except for its general location." This shouldn't be a difficult choice.

Hopefully, you've figured out by now that I'm not claiming a metaphysical certainty here. I don't need to. The requirement to do so is simply your attempt to impose an impossible burden of proof, now that your other excuses have been peeled away.


JI: And none of this lengthy screed supports the claim that Shaw “couldn’t possibly know” a bullet was still in Connally’s leg, or that he was incorrect in the definitive statement he made at the time he made it. Just because you think you’ve “figured it out” doesn’t mean you’re right.

MT: BTW, where did I actually say "couldn't possibly know"?

JI: You didn’t. Bill Brown did and then you injected yourself into my response to him.

MT: Ah, so now you're putting Bills words in my mouth


No, Einstein. My response to Bill was my response to Bill. It’s not all about you, narcissist. Maybe if you didn't jump in to try to be his proxy you would have realized that.

If your response to Bill was your response to Bill and only your response to Bill, then why add the quote from your response to Bill when you responded to something that I wrote? Also, you quoted something I said in the same paragraph, but without doing anything to disambiguate the two. That's a curious way to behave.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 05:46:38 AM by Mitch Todd »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2023, 10:14:48 PM »
Not true. To assume that Shaw's statement is correct necessarily requires the simultaneous assumptions that Gregory's statements, Shires' statements, and the x-rays are all wrong.

Bull. Those things occurred at different times.

Quote
Plus, if Shaw is incorrect, it's easy to explain why. He saw one hole in Connally's thigh, didn't see any other that could constitute an exit point, and so decided that the bullet entered but did not exit, remaining buried in the thigh. It's a simple and quite reasonable explanation, and requires minimal additional assumptions.

That is quite a detailed narrative to be using Occam’s razor to justify.

Quote
If your response to Bill was your response to Bill and only your response to Bill, then why add the quote from your response to Bill when you responded to something that I wrote? Also, you quoted something I said in the same paragraph, but without doing anything to disambiguate the two. That's a curious way to behave.

I think my error was in assuming that you would actually read the previous comments in the thread before chiming in.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2023, 10:14:48 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2023, 12:02:37 AM »
Since the thread is becoming a mess, I'm going to split my reply up. The what-did-Olivier-say-and-when-did-he-say-it question seems to be the cornerstone at this point, so I'll address that first.

And Olivier's testimony didn't contradict anything in the report.

BS. The report, co-written by Olivier, did not confirm CE399 as the bullet that hit both Kennedy and Connally. In fact it leaves open the possibility that there were two seperate shots.
In his testimony, however, Olivier stated that CE399 was, in his opinion, the bullet that caused all the wounds in Kennedy and Connally, except for Kennedy's headwound.
If you don't see the contradiction there, you are either blind or utterly dishonest.

Let's go back to what Olivier actually said:

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the nature of the wound inflicted on the Governor's wrist, and on the tests which you have conducted then, do you have an opinion as to which is more probable on whether the bullet passed through only the Governor's chest before striking his wrist, or passed through the President first and then the Governor's chest before striking the Governor's wrist?

Dr. OLIVIER Will you say that again to make sure I have it?

Mr. SPECTER. [To the reporter.] Could you repeat that question, please? (The question was read by the reporter.)

Dr. OLIVIER. You couldn't say exactly at all. My feeling is that it would be more probable that it passed through the President first. At least I think it is important to establish line of flight to try to determine it.


Notice that he says that the JFK-JBC explanation is "more probable," which doesn't rule out a JBC-only path. His earlier statement, "you couldn't say exactly at all" makes this even clearer. Just like the later Edgewood report says.

 


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2023, 12:11:08 AM »
MT: Not true. To assume that Shaw's statement is correct necessarily requires the simultaneous assumptions that Gregory's statements, Shires' statements, and the x-rays are all wrong.

Bull. Those things occurred at different times.

The assumptions are simultaneous, not necessarily the events they describe.


That is quite a detailed narrative to be using Occam’s razor to justify.

I'm unaware of any complexity or detail requirements for Occam's razor.


I think my error was in assuming that you would actually read the previous comments in the thread before chiming in.

It's probably not the best idea to expect other posters to remember verbatim every single post several pages back. Just sayin'.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2023, 12:11:08 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2023, 12:42:01 AM »
Wow, in one post from "I made a mistake and used the wrong word" to "I am still correct", while completely ignoring that testimony is given under oath. Hilarious.

So desperate to twist and turn in any possible way to "win" an argument. It's pathetic and sad. Is it that you are so narcissistic that you think you are always right, even when you are not?

Says the guy who's keeps making a huge deal over whether or not I used the words "testimony" and or "testify" correctly. My intended use of testify fits the standard definitions of the word, as given by Merriam-Webster:

   2a: to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief : bear witness
   2b: to serve as evidence or proof

   3: to express a personal conviction

Dolce's statements fit under 2a and 3. Take your pick.

Further, the word I mistakenly wrote, "testimony" includes the following definitions:

   1a: a solemn declaration usually made orally by a witness under oath in response to interrogation by a lawyer or authorized public official
   1b: firsthand authentication of a fact : EVIDENCE

Note that while definition 1a uses "under oath," it doesn't exclusively say that testimony requires an oath. That's the consequence of the preceding "usually." In any case, that Dolce's outing to WC HQ also fits under definition 1b.
 

The bottom line is a simple one; if you tell 100 people that you have testified there won't be anybody who thinks you possibly did so somewhere else but in court and under oath.

If I was summoned before a government fact-finding body, few people other than lawyers would give a single thought as to whether or not any oath was administered, or to how formally the event was conducted. They would just think that I testified is some way. There's a reason why "testify under oath" is fairly commonly used phrase. If "testify" automatically required an oath, then there would be no reason to say "testify under oath" when just plain "testify" would do.


Your claim that Dolce testified simply because he had a conversation (that was not recorded in any way) with Specter and his team is simply not true, no matter how many times you say it is.

Again, that's not what Dolce thought. His letter also includes this gem: "My testimony on the one bullet theory are [sic] clearly written in Dr. Thompson’s book — “Six Seconds in Dallas” on pages 152 and 206." I don't think Tink Thompson administered any oath to Dolce, but Dolce saw it as "testimony" anyway.