A time to receive and give (CE399)


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Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2022, 04:26:43 AM »

Question:

Why do you find it implausible for Mr. Frazier to make an error, but totally plausible for Mr. Shady to have made an error?


Not sure where you are trying to go with this Mr. Shady stuff, but as far as Frazier is concerned; if there is anybody at the FBI who understands the significance of an unbroken chain of custody, it's Frazier. The irony is that, prior to his testimony, Frazier made a list of times he received the pieces of evidence, to protect the chain of custody. He would be the last person to use incorrect times and thus compromise the evidence.

So, what point are you trying to make? You don't think there was a Mr. Shady. So you think the evidence is legitimate? But Mr. Frazier made a careless error? Therefore, you are free to ignore CE 399?

Is that all your saying?

So what, exactly is your point about an apparent error by Mr. Frazier? Was someone planting or faking evidence or not?

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2022, 04:26:43 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2022, 07:55:58 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2022, 01:20:44 PM »
So, what point are you trying to make? You don't think there was a Mr. Shady. So you think the evidence is legitimate? But Mr. Frazier made a careless error? Therefore, you are free to ignore CE 399?

Is that all your saying?

So what, exactly is your point about an apparent error by Mr. Frazier? Was someone planting or faking evidence or not?

The point I made is clear enough. I can't help it if you don't understand it.

You may call it an "apparent error" by Frazier, and maybe it was, but it shouldn't have happened because it compromises the chain of custody and justifies the question about what else Frazier was in error.

I see you added the text below to an earlier post;

Quote
* * * * *

A point that is given way to little consideration, is that the early discovery of CE 399, while the doctors were still working on the President and Connally means it almost certainly is legitimate. After all, for all the conspirators may know, the doctors may discover a bullet in Connally's body and two bullets in JFK's body, giving three bullets that they have to account for. Plus, they don't know if any bystanders, like James Tague, and possibly others, may turn up with bullet wounds, however minor. And now, after planting CE 399, they have only made the problem worse. How could Oswald have fired all those bullets?

Surely, rational plotters would wait for the dust to settle, find out how many bullets the doctors recovered, from JFK, from Connally, from the limousine, from other bystanders before they go ahead and start to plant additional bullets. But, perhaps, the plotters employed a psychic so they knew that this would not be a problem.

Why is this problem so rarely addressed by CTers?


A point that is given way to little consideration, is that the early discovery of CE 399, while the doctors were still working on the President and Connally means it almost certainly is legitimate.

You are jumping to a conclusion that is not supported by the evidence. Tomlinson, found a bullet on a stretcher which was never conclusively linked to Connally. There is not a shred of evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 ever went through two bodies. Any physical evidence (like blood and or tissue parts on the bullet) was destroyed when SA Johnsen put the bullet in his pocket. Even Dr. Humes told the WC in his testimony that he did not believe CE399 could have passed through two bodies, hitting bone, and still come out in the condition it is in. And it gets even worse. Arlen Specter introduced CE399 into evidence subject to later proof of it's authenticity but that proof was never provided! And then there is Joseph Dolce, a US Army ballistics expert, who worked for the Warren Commission. He confirms on video that he was given the original MC rifle and 100 bullets. He shot all 100 bullets into animal cadavers and all of the bullets were smashed. None of the bullets did even resemble CE399. Not surprisingly, Dolce's testimony was not included in the Warren Report.

After all, for all the conspirators may know, the doctors may discover a bullet in Connally's body and two bullets in JFK's body, giving three bullets that they have to account for. Plus, they don't know if any bystanders, like James Tague, and possibly others, may turn up with bullet wounds, however minor. And now, after planting CE 399, they have only made the problem worse. How could Oswald have fired all those bullets?

Why would any of this be a problem, when the conspirators contol the autopsy, the investigation and the cover up, if there was one? LNs keep going on about CE399 being planted, but there is no proof for that. It may well be that Tomlinson found a completely unrelated bullet, which would explain why O.V. Wright said (I'm paraphrasing) that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 isn't the pointed bullet he saw.

But let's take this a bit further and consider all the circumstances, shall we?

There are three sources for bullets and fragments. The first one is CE399, which I have already discussed. The second is the fragments that allegedly came from the limo, which became a crime scene after the bullets were fired. In any normal investigation the crime scene would be preserved until the forensic team examined it. Not in this case! The limo was illegally taken back to Washington and parked in the Secret Service garage. FBI expert Frazier and two of his men arrived at the garage at around 1:00 PM to examine the limo. When they got there they learned that the car had already been searched by an unqualified Secret Service agent and another man (I can't remember who that was, I would have to look it up) and no in situ photos were taken. Frazier was given some bullet fragments and was told they came from the limo, so, just as with CE399 there is no authentication of those fragments which could have come from anywhere. There is not a shred of proof those fragments actually came from the limo.

And then, thirdly, there is the so-called Walker bullet. In all the contemporary DPD reports the bullet recovered from Walker's home in April 1963 is described as a 30.06 calibre. This only changed after Oswald was arrested. General Walker, who was not aware of this was surprised when the HSCA showed a photograph of the bullet allegedly taken from his home and he instantly noticed that the bullet in the photograph was not the bullet that DPD took from his home. He wrote to the HSCA who ignored him. He then instructed his lawyer to contact the HSCA but that was in vain also.

So, we have two bullets and some fragments from three different locations and none of them have a solid chain of custody. Name me one other case in history where none of the bullets and fragments allegedly fired from the murder weapon can be authenticated? You can't and nobody can because it simply doesn't happen, yet we are somehow to believe that the bullets and fragments are in fact authentic? Really?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 02:03:59 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2022, 01:20:44 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2022, 06:15:11 PM »
The point I made is clear enough. I can't help it if you don't understand it.

You may call it an "apparent error" by Frazier, and maybe it was, but it shouldn't have happened because it compromises the chain of custody and justifies the question about what else Frazier was in error.

Yes, but you never explain what this "error" means? Or might mean?

What's the "worst" interpretation that could mean conspiracy?


I see you added the text below to an earlier post;
A point that is given way to little consideration, is that the early discovery of CE 399, while the doctors were still working on the President and Connally means it almost certainly is legitimate.

You are jumping to a conclusion that is not supported by the evidence. Tomlinson, found a bullet on a stretcher which was never conclusively linked to Connally.

There is not a shred of evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 ever went through two bodies. Any physical evidence (like blood and or tissue parts on the bullet) was destroyed when SA Johnsen put the bullet in his pocket.

But about as much evidence as one would expect if CE 399 was collected and put into a pocket. And a largely intact bullet like CE 399 might not have enough blood or tissue on it to be detectable, unlike a rough surfaced bullet fragment, even if not put into a pocket.

Even Dr. Humes told the WC in his testimony that he did not believe CE399 could have passed through two bodies, hitting bone, and still come out in the condition it is in.

Dr. Humes was a medical doctor, one of those who performed the autopsy. But not a ballistic expert. Not an expert who can judge the likely condition of a bullet after striking one or more people. Only a ballistic expert who does real world tests with ballistic gel targets can make that determination. And all the ballistic experts that I know of, who are trusted to give testimony in criminal cases, believe that CE 399 quite plausibly caused the wounds to JFK and Connally, expect for JFK's head wound, of course.

You can find all kinds of testimony from non ballistic experts on how impossible it is for CE 399 to end up in the condition it is. But not one "true" ballistic expert. Maybe someone who is called a "ballistic expert". But not a true one. Not one who makes extensive tests firing into ballistic gel targets. Or who has been called upon to give expert ballistic testimony in criminal trials.

And it gets even worse.

Oh Dear!

Arlen Specter introduced CE399 into evidence subject to later proof of it's authenticity but that proof was never provided!

It is difficult to imagine who such "proof" could ever be provided for any bullet. Maybe a bullet fragment, using recent DNA technology. Although even that could be faked.

And then there is Joseph Dolce, a US Army ballistics expert, who worked for the Warren Commission. He confirms on video that he was given the original MC rifle and 100 bullets. He shot all 100 bullets into animal cadavers and all of the bullets were smashed. None of the bullets did even resemble CE399. Not surprisingly, Dolce's testimony was not included in the Warren Report.

I don't think the original MC rifle ever fired 100 bullets after the assassination. My impression was it was fired as little as possible, maybe a dozen times, to ensure it was preserved. And didn't break it's firing pin.

As far as I know, Joseph Dolce's one test, was to fire a MC rifle directly into the wrist of a human cadaver at near muzzle velocity. Naturally, this would smash, even fragment (I expect) a WCC/MC bullet.

Joseph Dolce may have been a leading US Army ballistic expert. But he did not have extensive experience in criminal cases, where getting the details right is critical.

Question: Can you give me a single example, where in a criminal court of law, Joseph Dolce was called upon to give expert ballistic testimony?

You see, this is the sort of expert I'm looking for. One with extensive experience shooting a ballistic gel targets. Where one can actually see the path of a bullet and judge what it actually hit. Did the bullet strike bone? One cannot tell with animal cadavers. But one can tell with with ballistic gel, which is transparent. And whose expertise is trusted enough to be used in court.

Did CE 399 pass through and break Connally's wrist bone? Yes. Was it fired directly into a wrist bone, as "ballistic expert" ?!? Joseph Dolce recreated? No. What did CE 399 do?

The bullet traveled about 63 years yards.
Passed through the back of JFK's clothes.
Passed through the skin of the back of the neck of JFK.
Note: Both skin (and I assume clothes) are tough and would slow a bullet more than normal tissue. A tenth of an inch of skin slows a bullet the same as about two inches of muscle)
Passed through six inches of JFK's neck without directly striking any bone.
Passed through the skin of the front of the neck of JFK.
Passed through the clothes of JFK in front of his neck.

Started passing through Connally's, apparently somewhat sideways, judging from the shape of the entrance wound. While travelling sideways the bullet would decelerate at a much greater rate than before. Now the bullet would be decelerating at three to five times it's former rate, due to it's much larger cross section.
Passed through the back of Connally's clothes.
Passed through the skin on the back of Connally.
Passed through an unknown (by me) amount of flesh, maybe one inch or so.

And then, finally, for the first time, directly striking bone, a rib bone of Connally.

Only bone (at anything less than muzzle velocity) can smash, damage, fragment, a WCC/MC bullet. And only if the bullet is still travelling fast enough, 1700 fps (travelling point first) or 1400 fps (travelling sideways), Sturdivan's estimates.

By the time the bullet reached the rib, it was travelling at (Larry Sturdivan's estimate) at about 1400 fps, just fast enough to slightly damage the bullet. And only because it was travelling sideways. Had the bullet still been travelling point first, it would not have been damaged at all.

Note, I am, of course not a ballistic expert. I have just read a book by one, Larry Sturdivan's book "The JFK Myths". But Sturdivan's estimates sound plausible. The bullet passed through about 18 to 20 inches of flesh and bone, total. It first struck JFK at about 2000 fps. It had passed through about 7 inches of flesh when it first directly struck bone, Connally's rib and was still going 1400 fps. In the next 11 inches of bone and flesh, it slowed to 0 fps. All estimates of speed are Sturdivan's estimates. This sounds quite plausible. After travelling about a third of it's way through human bodies, the bullet only had about two thirds of it's speed left.

After all, for all the conspirators may know, the doctors may discover a bullet in Connally's body and two bullets in JFK's body, giving three bullets that they have to account for. Plus, they don't know if any bystanders, like James Tague, and possibly others, may turn up with bullet wounds, however minor. And now, after planting CE 399, they have only made the problem worse. How could Oswald have fired all those bullets?

Why would any of this be a problem, when the conspirators contol the autopsy, the investigation and the cover up, if there was one? LNs keep going on about CE399 being planted, but there is no proof for that.

. . .


Your right. This is perfectly possible. The conspirators could totally control all the evidence. If one believed that Large-Secret-Conspiracies are not highly improbable.

The problem is that I don't believe that Large-Secret-Conspiracies are at all likely. That one can easily get everyone on board. And hide the evidence of a James Tague being wounded. And possibly others, in a worst cast scenario, like if Mrs. Kennedy, or Mrs. Connally or any Secret Service Agents are wounded. And get all the Secret Service agents to help plant false evidence. And all the autopsy doctors to eagerly join in. And all the rest of them.

If one believes in Large-Secret-Conspiracies, the conspiracy you described to control all the evidence is quite plausible. But to a skeptic, it's a very tough sell.


Skeptics are consistent. We are skeptical of all Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracies. And have been for centuries. Like the alleged conspiracies of:

The Freemasons
The Elders of Zion
U. S. Government / Space Aliens collaborations
The Fake Apollo Moon Landings
Fake 9/11 hijacking and building demolitions
Massive Vote fraud in the 2020 U. S. election

and yes, the:

U. S. Government extensive involvement in the JFK assassination.

This 'technique' of skeptics is useful, because Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracies are inherently fascinating to people and a surprising large number of false theories are Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy theories. If you can recognize these, you can steer yourself away from a lot of false theories. Not all, but a lot.

Skeptics are consistently on the rational side.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 06:30:43 PM by Joe Elliott »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2022, 07:12:34 PM »
Now, Mr. Shady knew the importance of creating a credible chain of custody, yet he compromised this effort by being sloppy with the inconsistent information?

This argument is comical every time it’s used. If there was a solid, consistent chain of custody it would be trumpeted as showing that Oswald was guilty. If there is inconsistent evidence with no solid chain of custody, well, the conspirators I just dreamed up in my head would have created a solid consistent chain of custody, therefore it must be authentic and Oswald did it. Either way, you win.

Quote
A point that is given way to little consideration, is that the early discovery of CE 399, while the doctors were still working on the President and Connally means it almost certainly is legitimate.

That would be great if you could actually establish that CE399 is what was discovered early.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2022, 07:31:53 PM »
Yes, but you never explain what this "error" means? Or might mean?

Really, Joe? It might mean that the thing that Todd supposedly gave Frazier at 7:35 was not the same thing Rowley gave Todd later, at 8:50.

Quote
But about as much evidence as one would expect if CE 399 was collected and put into a pocket. And a largely intact bullet like CE 399 might not have enough blood or tissue on it to be detectable, unlike a rough surfaced bullet fragment, even if not put into a pocket.

So then what reason do we have to believe that CE399 ever went through Kennedy or Connally — even if somebody thinks it “could have”?

Quote

Did CE 399 pass through and break Connally's wrist bone? Yes. Was it fired directly into a wrist bone, as "ballistic expert" ?!? Joseph Dolce recreated? No. What did CE 399 do?

The bullet traveled about 63 years yards.
Passed through the back of JFK's clothes.
Passed through the skin of the back of the neck of JFK.
Note: Both skin (and I assume clothes) are tough and would slow a bullet more than normal tissue. A tenth of an inch of skin slows a bullet the same as about two inches of muscle)
Passed through six inches of JFK's neck without directly striking any bone.
Passed through the skin of the front of the neck of JFK.
Passed through the clothes of JFK in front of his neck.

Started passing through Connally's, apparently somewhat sideways, judging from the shape of the entrance wound. While travelling sideways the bullet would decelerate at a much greater rate than before. Now the bullet would be decelerating at three to five times it's former rate, due to it's much larger cross section.
Passed through the back of Connally's clothes.
Passed through the skin on the back of Connally.
Passed through an unknown (by me) amount of flesh, maybe one inch or so.

And then, finally, for the first time, directly striking bone, a rib bone of Connally.

Only bone (at anything less than muzzle velocity) can smash, damage, fragment, a WCC/MC bullet. And only if the bullet is still travelling fast enough, 1700 fps (travelling point first) or 1400 fps (travelling sideways), Sturdivan's estimates.

By the time the bullet reached the rib, it was travelling at (Larry Sturdivan's estimate) at about 1400 fps, just fast enough to slightly damage the bullet. And only because it was travelling sideways. Had the bullet still been travelling point first, it would not have been damaged at all.

How could you possibly know that CE399 did any of that? Or that the bullet that broke Connally’s wrist was CE399? The answer is, you don’t. It’s yet another “could have” story made up to try to fit the existing evidence to a predetermined conclusion.

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2022, 07:31:53 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2022, 07:36:29 PM »
Yes, but you never explain what this "error" means? Or might mean?

What's the "worst" interpretation that could mean conspiracy?


The error, if that's what is was, is by itself inexcusable for a forensic specialist as Frazier who was or should have been aware of the importance of a credible chain of custody.

Having said that, if it wasn't an error I could mean that Frazier was delivered another bullet than the one Johnsen gave to Rowley, which in turn would mean that evidence was being manipulated. That by itself points to a conspiracy.

Quote

But about as much evidence as one would expect if CE 399 was collected and put into a pocket. And a largely intact bullet like CE 399 might not have enough blood or tissue on it to be detectable, unlike a rough surfaced bullet fragment, even if not put into a pocket.


"as much evidence as one would expect" ? What in the world are you talking about? The lack of evidence that a bullet went through bodies is exactly that; no evidence at all! Regardless of what you expected! You can not argue that the fact that no evidence was found is somehow evidence of it happening just because you didn't expect to find any evidence.

Quote

Dr. Humes was a medical doctor, one of those who performed the autopsy. But not a ballistic expert.



This is probably true, but he would have seen plenty of bullets and bullet wounds in his time to have an opinion. And one can only wonder why Arlen Specter introduced CE399 into evidence (subject to later proof, which never came) during Humes' testimony and asked him for his opinion?

Mr. SPECTER - We have been asked by the FBI that the missile not be handled by anybody because it is undergoing further ballistic tests, and it now appears, may the record show, in a plastic case in a cotton background.
Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388?
Commander HUMES - I do not believe so, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?
Commander HUMES - I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on those two answers?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, please do.
Commander HUMES - The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments.
Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found:
"Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."
The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be in tact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations.


Since when do you have to be a ballistics expert to determine if a bullet could have caused all the wounds. Seems more a question for a medical examiner to answer, which is of course why Specter asked Humes.

Quote
Not an expert who can judge the likely condition of a bullet after striking one or more people. Only a ballistic expert who does real world tests with ballistic gel targets can make that determination.

Like Joseph Dolce, right?

Quote
And all the ballistic experts that I know of, who are trusted to give testimony in criminal cases, believe that CE 399 quite plausibly caused the wounds to JFK and Connally, expect for JFK's head wound, of course.


Well, perhaps you don't know the right ballistic experts. Why don't you name a few who say that CE399 could have caused the wounds of JFK and Connally?

Quote
You can find all kinds of testimony from non ballistic experts on how impossible it is for CE 399 to end up in the condition it is. But not one "true" ballistic expert. Maybe someone who is called a "ballistic expert". But not a true one. Not one who makes extensive tests firing into ballistic gel targets. Or who has been called upon to give expert ballistic testimony in criminal trials.

I'm not sure who you are talking about. And what do you mean by a "true ballistic expert"? Could that be one who says what you want to hear? It sure looks that way!

Quote

Oh Dear!

It is difficult to imagine who such "proof" could ever be provided for any bullet. Maybe a bullet fragment, using recent DNA technology. Although even that could be faked.


Take it up with Specter. He said it

Mr. SPECTER - Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 399, and may I say now that, subject to later proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by Governor Connally. I move for its admission into evidence at this time.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

In other words, the proof Specter was talking about was the authentication of the bullet by way of the chain of custody. Clearly, Specter wasn't convinced that there was a solid chain of custody for CE399 and other pieces of evidence, which is exactly why the WC asked the FBI to verify the chains of custody about a month after Humes' testimony.

Quote
I don't think the original MC rifle ever fired 100 bullets after the assassination. My impression was it was fired as little as possible, maybe a dozen times, to ensure it was preserved. And didn't break it's firing pin.

As far as I know, Joseph Dolce's one test, was to fire a MC rifle directly into the wrist of a human cadaver at near muzzle velocity. Naturally, this would smash, even fragment (I expect) a WCC/MC bullet.

I am not really interested in what you think or believe you know. Dolce is on video saying that he was given the original rifle and 100 bullets to conduct tests. Hear and see the man say it himself at 42.34.


Quote

Joseph Dolce may have been a leading US Army ballistic expert. But he did not have extensive experience in criminal cases, where getting the details right is critical.


And yet, Dolce was the man picked by the WC to do the tests. Your argument that he did not have experience in criminal cases is invalid. Dolce saw plenty of gunshot wounds in WW2 and there is no difference whatsoever between a bullet striking a man in combat or a bullet striking a man during a crime. Dolce got the details exactly right, but they just were not what Arlen Specter wanted to hear, which is why Dolce's testimony and report were left out of the WC report.

Quote
Question: Can you give me a single example, where in a criminal court of law, Joseph Dolce was called upon to give expert ballistic testimony?

You see, this is the sort of expert I'm looking for. One with extensive experience shooting a ballistic gel targets. Where one can actually see the path of a bullet and judge what it actually hit. Did the bullet strike bone? One cannot tell with animal cadavers. But one can tell with with ballistic gel, which is transparent. And whose expertise is trusted enough to be used in court.


This is an irrelevant question. I don't know enough about Dolce to say if he was ever called as an expert in a criminal proceeding. He was in the miitary and may well not have been allowed to be involved in crimimal cases. The bottom line is that the WC called upon him to do the work, which is exactly what he did. You second guessing his procedures is of no importance.

Quote

Did CE 399 pass through and break Connally's wrist bone? Yes. Was it fired directly into a wrist bone, as "ballistic expert" ?!? Joseph Dolce recreated? No. What did CE 399 do?

The bullet traveled about 63 years yards.
Passed through the back of JFK's clothes.
Passed through the skin of the back of the neck of JFK.
Note: Both skin (and I assume clothes) are tough and would slow a bullet more than normal tissue. A tenth of an inch of skin slows a bullet the same as about two inches of muscle)
Passed through six inches of JFK's neck without directly striking any bone.
Passed through the skin of the front of the neck of JFK.
Passed through the clothes of JFK in front of his neck.

Started passing through Connally's, apparently somewhat sideways, judging from the shape of the entrance wound. While travelling sideways the bullet would decelerate at a much greater rate than before. Now the bullet would be decelerating at three to five times it's former rate, due to it's much larger cross section.
Passed through the back of Connally's clothes.
Passed through the skin on the back of Connally.
Passed through an unknown (by me) amount of flesh, maybe one inch or so.

And then, finally, for the first time, directly striking bone, a rib bone of Connally.

Only bone (at anything less than muzzle velocity) can smash, damage, fragment, a WCC/MC bullet. And only if the bullet is still travelling fast enough, 1700 fps (travelling point first) or 1400 fps (travelling sideways), Sturdivan's estimates.

By the time the bullet reached the rib, it was travelling at (Larry Sturdivan's estimate) at about 1400 fps, just fast enough to slightly damage the bullet. And only because it was travelling sideways. Had the bullet still been travelling point first, it would not have been damaged at all.

Note, I am, of course not a ballistic expert. I have just read a book by one, Larry Sturdivan's book "The JFK Myths". But Sturdivan's estimates sound plausible. The bullet passed through about 18 to 20 inches of flesh and bone, total. It first struck JFK at about 2000 fps. It had passed through about 7 inches of flesh when it first directly struck bone, Connally's rib and was still going 1400 fps. In the next 11 inches of bone and flesh, it slowed to 0 fps. All estimates of speed are Sturdivan's estimates. This sounds quite plausible. After travelling about a third of it's way through human bodies, the bullet only had about two thirds of it's speed left.


Note, I am, of course not a ballistic expert. I have just read a book by one, Larry Sturdivan's book "The JFK Myths".

There was no need for you to point that out. It is pretty obvious that you just parrotted the opinion of somebody else who you seem to think is credible, simply because what he says sound plausible to you.
The problem is that your opinion is a biased one and Sturdivan clearly had an objective to discredit anything that didn't fit with the lone nut narrative.

I, on the other hand, listen to the man who actually conducted the tests and I have no reason to assume that he is not telling to truth or is incompetent or did not conduct his tests correctly.


Did CE 399 pass through and break Connally's wrist bone? Yes. Was it fired directly into a wrist bone, as "ballistic expert" ?!? Joseph Dolce recreated? No.

This comment of yours tells the whole story;

Earlier in your post you wrote; "Joseph Dolce may have been a leading US Army ballistic expert." (which he was) but by the time you get to questioning his procedures he has suddenly become a "ballistic expert"

And how do you even know how Dolce conducted the tests, when you don't even know he used the original rifle and used 100 bullets? Dolce's report is at the National Archives. Perhaps you should read it before making comments about something you clearly don't know anything about.

Quote

Your right. This is perfectly possible. The conspirators could totally control all the evidence. If one believed that Large-Secret-Conspiracies are not highly improbable.

The problem is that I don't believe that Large-Secret-Conspiracies are at all likely. That one can easily get everyone on board. And hide the evidence of a James Tague being wounded. And possibly others, in a worst cast scenario, like if Mrs. Kennedy, or Mrs. Connally or any Secret Service Agents are wounded. And get all the Secret Service agents to help plant false evidence. And all the autopsy doctors to eagerly join in. And all the rest of them.

If one believes in Large-Secret-Conspiracies, the conspiracy you described to control all the evidence is quite plausible. But to a skeptic, it's a very tough sell.


I don't believe in a large secret conspiracy, whatever that is supposed to mean, nor did I describe one.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 07:44:54 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2022, 07:45:21 PM »
I don't believe in a large secret conspiracy, whatever that is supposed to mean.

It’s the only alternative that Joe can think of to the WC fiction.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: A time to receive and give (CE399)
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2022, 07:45:21 PM »


 

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