A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Mike Orr]

CE 399 was supposed to be the end all for the Warren Commission's pick as the smoking gun for the " Magic Bullet " to have been one of the 3 shots that was fired by one person even if that one person was in the break room with a coke in his hand . John Connally was walking around with what was left of CE 399 in his left thigh so the Magic single bullet theory holds no water at all and the you have Gerald Ford moving the back wound up to the base of the neck to try and help the Magic Bullet theory try to fit all of those wounds through 2 people .  Did Gerald Ford move the back shot to the base of the neck all on his own because I can't imagine anyone else on the Warren Commission agreeing with Ford on the new placement of CE 399 ! We should have known that Dulles ( who was fired by JFK ) being on the Warren Commission was not going to be on the up and up .

[Mitch Todd]

Note: I went back and fixed a lot of spelling, grammar and style issues in the post that Martin replied to, but after Martin responded. None of my arguments changed, however. In this reply, I will not correct the parts of the unedited post that Martin replies to.

How does anyone actually define a "ballistics expert" or a "wound ballistics expert?"

Ask Joe Elliot, as he seems to be desperate to make a distinction.

Since your arguments assume that Dolce is a relevant expert, you are implicated on this matter as well.

In particular, Dolce takes issue with Olivier, et al,

From what I have seen Dolce takes issue with Olivier because when he testified before the WC (after Specter had decided not to call Dolce) he told a different story than was in the Edgewood report, of which he (Olivier) was one of the authors.

Which Edgewood report is this? This one: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62296#relPageId=1 ? It reached the same conclusions that Olivier puts forward  in his WC testimony.

In particular, Dolce takes issue with Olivier, et al, accepting Grogory's assignation of entry and exit for the wrist wound. Dolce does this based on the fact that the dorsal wound was larger than the volar wound. He should have done his homework. Gregory noted that while the dorsal wound was larger, ragged, and irregular, but the volar wound was "slit-like." The term "slit-like" screams "low velocity exit" in no undcertain terms. Further, Gregory noted that he found fabric debris from Connally's clothing in the dorsal side of the wound, but not the volar side.

So this is merely a disagreement about where the bullet entered and left Connally's arm? How is that in anyway significant for the shape of the bullet and the damage to it? During his testimony Gregory was asked if the bullet could have hit the wrist bone and come out lokking as CE399 and although he gave a long winded reply he never really answered the question.

Edgewood and Gregory both noted that the cadaver wrist tests proved that Connally could only have been hit by bullet that had been significantly slowed before impact. The corallary to this is, the cadaver wrist bullets aren't relevant in the JFK case, no matter what Dolce wanted to believe.

Nobody disputed that Connally's wrist was hit by a slowed down bullet, at least not as far as I can tell. I'm not sure what you think Dolce wanted to believe, but his position seems to have been that CE399 could not have hit two men, hit bone in Connally's body twice and somehow come out in near pristine condition. That was what the Edgewood team concluded in their report and that was why Specter buried the report and decided not to call Dolce as a witness.

I didn't say that Dolce only objected to Oliver's acceptance of Gregory's explanation of the wound. I bought it up because it particularly illuminates the ignorance underlying Dolce's objections. He didn't bother to understand Gregory's diagnosis of the wrist wound, and did not understand that Gregory's qualifications in GSW ballistics were comparable to his own.

Further, Dolce assumed that the wrist tests his team performed by his team were applicable for all cases of a 6.5mm WCC 6.5mm bullet striking a radius. That's a gigantic assumption. The reality is, his tests turned out to be irrelevant to the case at hand (pun intended, in case you were wondering).

As court cases all over the country demonstrate over and over again, experts will differ in opinions, depending for what side they testify for. That's why I'm not really interested in who is right or wrong or more qualified or not (as Joe seems to be) but instead I wonder why Specter would bury a report by ballistics experts his own commission had appointed. There can only be one explanation and that is that the report said what he didn't want to hear, because it would destroy his pet single bullet theory. And that - and a whole lot more - tells me all I need to know about the real objective of the Warren Commission.

You haven't demonstrated that Dolce should be considered an expert in this case, or that he has anything meaningful to say about it. I would say that he managed only to betray his reasoning as lazy and uniformed. You have also failed so far to demonstrate that there was report generated by Edgewood  and suppressed by the WC. You seem to assume it exists, but can generate no evidence of it.

[Martin Weidmann]

Note: I went back and fixed a lot of spelling, grammar and style issues in the post that Martin replied to, but after Martin responded. None of my arguments changed, however. In this reply, I will not correct the parts of the unedited post that Martin replies to.
Since your arguments assume that Dolce is a relevant expert, you are implicated on this matter as well.

Which Edgewood report is this? This one: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62296#relPageId=1 ? It reached the same conclusions that Olivier puts forward  in his WC testimony.


I didn't say that Dolce only objected to Oliver's acceptance of Gregory's explanation of the wound. I bought it up because it particularly illuminates the ignorance underlying Dolce's objections. He didn't bother to understand Gregory's diagnosis of the wrist wound, and did not understand that Gregory's qualifications in GSW ballistics were comparable to his own.

Further, Dolce assumed that the wrist tests his team performed by his team were applicable for all cases of a 6.5mm WCC 6.5mm bullet striking a radius. That's a gigantic assumption. The reality is, his tests turned out to be irrelevant to the case at hand (pun intended, in case you were wondering).


You haven't demonstrated that Dolce should be considered an expert in this case, or that he has anything meaningful to say about it. I would say that he managed only to betray his reasoning as lazy and uniformed. You have also failed so far to demonstrate that there was report generated by Edgewood  and suppressed by the WC. You seem to assume it exists, but can generate no evidence of it.

Since your arguments assume that Dolce is a relevant expert, you are implicated on this matter as well.

"Implicated" LOL

Dolce and his team were hired by the WC. Should I perhaps assume that the WC didn't know what they were doing and that they hired a few bumbling idiots?

I assumed nothing. I merely stated as a matter of fact that the WC hired Dolce and that his experiments did not support the SBT, which is why Specter buried his report.

Which Edgewood report is this? This one: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62296#relPageId=1 ? It reached the same conclusions that Olivier puts forward  in his WC testimony.

Really? Where in the report does it say this?

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet 399 did cause the wound on the Governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. OLIVIER. I believe that it was. That is my feeling.

Btw, this exchange was based upon a lie, because earlier in the testimony Specter said this;

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which has been heretofore in Commission proceedings identified as the bullet found on the stretcher of Governor Connally

which was simply not true. CE399 was introduced into evidence during Humes' testimony, subject to later proof that it was the bullet found at Parkland. That proof was never provided!

But let me ask you this; if what Olivier testified was the same as is in the report, why did Specter bury the report? There is no mention of it in the entire WC report!

You haven't demonstrated that Dolce should be considered an expert in this case, or that he has anything meaningful to say about it.

Again, did the WC not know what they were doing when they hired Dolce? And why would Dolce have to be an expert in this case, whatever that means? I would think it is enough if he is an expert in his own field of expertise and his peers considered him to be so.

I would say that he managed only to betray his reasoning as lazy and uniformed.

Your biased opinion isn't worth much of anything.

You have also failed so far to demonstrate that there was report generated by Edgewood and suppressed by the WC. You seem to assume it exists, but can generate no evidence of it.

What a silly comment. The report was found in the WC documents at the National Archives and is now available on the Mary Ferrell website. You have seen it! I don't need to assume it exist, when I can read it! Your dishonesty is on full display here when you want me to to demonstrate that a report was generated by Edgewood when, in the same posts, you falsely claim that Olivier testimony was that his conclusions were the same as in the report!

As for the WC suppressing it; Specter made no reference to the report during the testimony of Olivier and Dziemian although he slipped up when he referred to "the goat depicted in the photographs and X-ray" which are in the report. Now, why would Specter not use the report during the testimony of Olivier, when he - as you falsely claim - put forward the same conclusions that are in the report?

The report concluded that it was possible that Connally was hit by the same shot that hit Kennedy in neck but that it could also have been a separate shot. Nowhere does the report confirm that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was in fact the bullet that hit both men. On page 43 of the report it becomes clear why; it shows two bullets, one that hit a rib and another one that was recovered from a gelatin model. The first bullet doesn't come close to looking anything like CE399, but the second one does.

This was, as I understand it, the reason for Dolce to conclude that CE399 could not have caused all the wounds in both men and still come out in the condition it is in. And that, in turn, is why Specter buried the report and did not call Dolce to testify.

[Bill Brown]

“The bullet is in the leg. It hasn’t been removed.” — Dr. Robert Shaw.

Shaw had nothing to do with the leg wound.  He couldn't possibly know.

The superficial wound to the leg was the last of Connally's wounds to be addressed, long after Shaw had performed surgery and left.

[John Iacoletti]

Why would Shaw report the existence of a bullet that he “couldn’t possibly know” about?

[Bill Brown]

Why would Shaw report the existence of a bullet that he “couldn’t possibly know” about?

You'd have to ask Shaw why he felt it okay to make an assumption.

Nevertheless, the thigh wound wasn't dealt with until after Shaw was gone from the operating room.

Go read the operative record.  The order of surgery was chest, wrist and then thigh.

[Mitch Todd]

Since your arguments assume that Dolce is a relevant expert, you are implicated on this matter as well.

Dolce and his team were hired by the WC. Should I perhaps assume that the WC didn't know what they were doing?

[...]

You haven't demonstrated that Dolce should be considered an expert in this case, or that he has anything meaningful to say about it.

Again, did the WC not know what they were doing when they hired Dolce?

Who said that the Warren Commission "hired" Dolce themselves? Dolce listed his position as "Chief Consultant for the US Army in wound ballistics" while Olivier was "Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch." Given these titles, it would appear that Dolce was simply a "consultant" or otherwise an employee working under Olivier's supervision. That is, the WC engaged Edgewood arsenal via Olivier, and Dolce performed certain tasks under Olivier's command. Given the emphasis that Dolce places on the wrist tests, I suspect that he was engaged in the endeavor simply due to the fact that he was the consulting MD, and the wrist tests involved amputated human cadaver arms. Olivier and Dziemian were, IIRC DVMs and could not legally work directly with human cadavers.     

Which Edgewood report is this? This one: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62296#relPageId=1 ? It reached the same conclusions that Olivier puts forward  in his WC testimony.

Really? Where in the report does it say this?

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet 399 did cause the wound on the Governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. OLIVIER. I believe that it was. That is my feeling.

Btw, this exchange was based upon a lie, because earlier in the testimony Specter said this;

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which has been heretofore in Commission proceedings identified as the bullet found on the stretcher of Governor Connally

which was simply not true. CE399 was introduced during Humes' testimony, subject to later proof that it was the bullet found at Parkland. That proof was never provided!

But let me ask you this; if what Olivier testified was the same as is in the report, why did Specter bury the report? There is no mention of it in the entire WC report!

1.) Who said that Olivier/Edgewood ever presented a report to Specter or anyone else serving with the Commission in the first place? That notion is simply your own presumption. You've presented no evidence for it.

2.) what does the question "when was ce399 entered into evidence by the WC" or "subject ot proof it was the bullet found at Parkland"  have to do with whether Specter had seen any supposed report created by Edgewood? That's just a red herring.

Finally:
MW: Really? Where in the report does it say this?
Let me put it another way: where does the report contradict Olivier's testimony to the Commission, as you claim it does?

I would say that he managed only to betray his reasoning as lazy and uniformed.

Your biased opinion isn't worth much.

I pointed out the deficiencies in Dolce's thinking. He didn't understand the wounds in Connally's arm and why those proved that the bullet travelled in a dorsal-to-volar direction rather than the volar-to-dorsal direction Dolce believed. He thought that Gregory "had no wound ballistic experience" when Gregory had quite a bit. And, I noted that Dolce believed that the wrist tests he performed were applicable to all possible cases, which is a very, very foolish presumption. All of it indicative of lazy thinking. All you can do in response is to poison the well and avoid dealing with the points I made. Probably because you are unable to deal with the points I've made.

You have also failed so far to demonstrate that there was report generated by Edgewood and suppressed by the WC. You seem to assume it exists, but can generate no evidence of it.

What a silly comment. The report was found in the WC documents at the National Archives and is now available on the Mary Ferrell website. I don't need to assume it exist, when I can read it! Your dishonesty is on full display here when you want me to to demonstrate that a report was generated by Edgewood when, in the same posts, you falsely claim that Olivier testified the same conclusions as were in the report!

As for the WC suppressing it; Specter made no reference to the report during the testimony of Olivier and Dziemian although he slipped up when he referred to "the goat depicted in the photographs and X-ray" which are in the report. Now, why would Specter not use the report during the testimony of Olivier, when he - as you falsely claim - put forward the same conclusions that are in the report?

The report concluded that it was possible that Connally was hit by the same shot that hit Kennedy in neck but that it could also have been a separate shot. Nowhere does the report confirm that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was in fact the bullet that hit both men. On page 43 of the report it becomes clear why; it shows two bullets, one that hit a rib and another one that was recovered from a gelatin model. The first bullet doesn't come close to looking anything like CE399, but the second one does.

This was the reason for Dolce to conclude that CE399 could not have caused all the wounds in both men and still come out in the condition it is in. That is why Specter buried the report and did not call Dolce to testify.

MW: What a silly comment. The report was found in the WC documents at the National Archives and is now available on the Mary Ferrell website.  I don't need to assume it exist, when I can read it!

I said, "you have also failed so far to demonstrate that there was report generated by Edgewood and suppressed by the WC. You seem to assume it exists, but can generate no evidence of it." Note the "and." There is an Edgewood report, but it's dated "March 1965." The Commission had wound up and published it's report many months before. If the report didn't exist before March 1965, then Specter could not have seen it before Olivier's testimony in May 1964, and therefore could not have suppressed it. QED. And you've still given us no reason to believe that Specter suppressed any supposed report in any case.


MW: [Specter] slipped up when he referred to "the goat depicted in the photographs and X-ray" which are in the report.

The photos and x-rays would have been created before any report was written, by necessity. As such, their existence is independent of any report. While it would be possible for them to be submitted as part of some report, it is also possible that they could be submitted as evidence by themselves, without any report ever being generated. Therefore, Specter's statement is evidence of nothing.  BTW, you saw the date on the Edgewood report, right?


MW: Nowhere does the report confirm that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was in fact the bullet that hit both men.

So what? In his testimony, Olivier never says that CE399 was the bullet that hit both men, either. ce399 doesn't even com up in Dzeimian's deposition. The Edgewood report parallels the two men's testimony and does not contradict it.


MW:  On page 43 of the report it becomes clear why; it shows two bullets, one that hit a rib and another one that was recovered from a gelatin model. The first bullet doesn't come close to looking anything like CE399, but the second one does.

The WC published photos of the goat-rib test bullets, and also published photos of the reference bullets (ce572) that Frazier and the FBI fired into a soft capture target just like the second bullet shown in the Edgewood report's 43rd page. If the WC was so concerned about the photos on page 43, they wouldn't have published photos of both the goat rib bullets and the FBI reference bullets, which really show roughly same difference. If they didn't care about publishing those, then they wouldn't have bothered worrying about page 43 in the Edgewood report.


MW: This was the reason for Dolce to conclude that CE399 could not have caused all the wounds in both men and still come out in the condition it is in. That is why Specter buried the report and did not call Dolce to testify.

Dolce only talks about the cadaver wrist tests in his "My Thoughts re President J. F. Kennedy Assassination" letter and in his recorded interview. The goat rib tests go
unmentioned in either source.

You've still generated nothing more than your own presumption that some report existed prior to Olivier's deposition with Specter, an that it was suppressed.

[Martin Weidmann]

Who said that the Warren Commission "hired" Dolce themselves? Dolce listed his position as "Chief Consultant for the US Army in wound ballistics" while Olivier was "Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch." Given these titles, it would appear that Dolce was simply a "consultant" or otherwise an employee working under Olivier's supervision. That is, the WC engaged Edgewood arsenal via Olivier, and Dolce performed certain tasks under Olivier's command. Given the emphasis that Dolce places on the wrist tests, I suspect that he was engaged in the endeavor simply due to the fact that he was the consulting MD, and the wrist tests involved amputated human cadaver arms. Olivier and Dziemian were, IIRC DVMs and could not legally work directly with human cadavers.     

1.) Who said that Olivier/Edgewood ever presented a report to Specter or anyone else serving with the Commission in the first place? That notion is simply your own presumption. You've presented no evidence for it.

2.) what does the question "when was ce399 entered into evidence by the WC" or "subject ot proof it was the bullet found at Parkland"  have to do with whether Specter had seen any supposed report created by Edgewood? That's just a red herring.

Finally:
MW: Really? Where in the report does it say this?
Let me put it another way: where does the report contradict Olivier's testimony to the Commission, as you claim it does?

I pointed out the deficiencies in Dolce's thinking. He didn't understand the wounds in Connally's arm and why those proved that the bullet travelled in a dorsal-to-volar direction rather than the volar-to-dorsal direction Dolce believed. He thought that Gregory "had no wound ballistic experience" when Gregory had quite a bit. And, I noted that Dolce believed that the wrist tests he performed were applicable to all possible cases, which is a very, very foolish presumption. All of it indicative of lazy thinking. All you can do in response is to poison the well and avoid dealing with the points I made. Probably because you are unable to deal with the points I've made.



MW: What a silly comment. The report was found in the WC documents at the National Archives and is now available on the Mary Ferrell website.  I don't need to assume it exist, when I can read it!

I said, "you have also failed so far to demonstrate that there was report generated by Edgewood and suppressed by the WC. You seem to assume it exists, but can generate no evidence of it." Note the "and." There is an Edgewood report, but it's dated "March 1965." The Commission had wound up and published it's report many months before. If the report didn't exist before March 1965, then Specter could not have seen it before Olivier's testimony in May 1964, and therefore could not have suppressed it. QED. And you've still given us no reason to believe that Specter suppressed any supposed report in any case.


MW: [Specter] slipped up when he referred to "the goat depicted in the photographs and X-ray" which are in the report.

The photos and x-rays would have been created before any report was written, by necessity. As such, their existence is independent of any report. While it would be possible for them to be submitted as part of some report, it is also possible that they could be submitted as evidence by themselves, without any report ever being generated. Therefore, Specter's statement is evidence of nothing.  BTW, you saw the date on the Edgewood report, right?


MW: Nowhere does the report confirm that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was in fact the bullet that hit both men.

So what? In his testimony, Olivier never says that CE399 was the bullet that hit both men, either. ce399 doesn't even com up in Dzeimian's deposition. The Edgewood report parallels the two men's testimony and does not contradict it.


MW:  On page 43 of the report it becomes clear why; it shows two bullets, one that hit a rib and another one that was recovered from a gelatin model. The first bullet doesn't come close to looking anything like CE399, but the second one does.

The WC published photos of the goat-rib test bullets, and also published photos of the reference bullets (ce572) that Frazier and the FBI fired into a soft capture target just like the second bullet shown in the Edgewood report's 43rd page. If the WC was so concerned about the photos on page 43, they wouldn't have published photos of both the goat rib bullets and the FBI reference bullets, which really show roughly same difference. If they didn't care about publishing those, then they wouldn't have bothered worrying about page 43 in the Edgewood report.


MW: This was the reason for Dolce to conclude that CE399 could not have caused all the wounds in both men and still come out in the condition it is in. That is why Specter buried the report and did not call Dolce to testify.

Dolce only talks about the cadaver wrist tests in his "My Thoughts re President J. F. Kennedy Assassination" letter and in his recorded interview. The goat rib tests go
unmentioned in either source.

You've still generated nothing more than your own presumption that some report existed prior to Olivier's deposition with Specter, an that it was suppressed.