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Author Topic: Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !  (Read 4774 times)

Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2018, 09:43:15 PM »
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It is really exasperating to read these comments from people saying that the fatal shot came from the front.  I have yet to see anyone posting the proof that the shot came from the rear, when there is more proof of it than anything else! 

 The Harper fragment and the David Burris fragment were both found several yards AHEAD of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot--not to mention the piece of skull Seymour Weitzman saw someone "lifting from the gutter on Elm street".  The majority of the head matter landed on the Connally's, Greer, Kellerman, the hood, sun visors(both sides) windshield, interior of the car, the side rails--both sides of the car and trunk lid.  All you have to do is read the testimony of Robert Frazier.  The top of the president's head--not the rear or side--was blown off.  Mrs. Kennedy's own words to Theodore White one week(7 days) after the assassination reveals this. As for the motorcycle officers, look closely and you can see the fine mist("cloud"/"plume") that  Bobby Hargis describes that he drove into, and Martin said he didn't even see the fatal shot, nor did he feel anything land on him.  He only described what he saw on his uniform, helmet and motorcycle, later, after directing traffic.  The display of head matter in the Zapruder film shows the top of the head flying through the air towards the front. Someone (I believe it was Dr.Lattimer) estimated them traveling at around 80 MPH, and it's obvious that these are skull fragments.  James Altgens stated during an interview--not to mention his WC testimony--that head matter flew in his direction.  He stated during one interview (possibly in Richard Trask's Pictures Of the Pain ) that matter landed near his feet.  Nowhere in the Zapruder film do we see skull fragments or large fragments of head matter flying to the rear of the limousine, and no skull fragments were found or seen flying to the rear.  The majority of head matter flew forward, a mist captured in the wind wafts to rear and is what landed on Hargis and Martin.

 Citations please!

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2018, 09:43:15 PM »


Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2018, 10:32:09 PM »
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Citations please!


So, you aren't familiar with ANY of what I said?

 Robert Frazier Warren Commission testimony. Graphic description of the blood and head matter all over the car as well as bullet fragments and damage to the windshield.  Look it up.

  Mrs. Kennedy 's description of the head wound on top of the head:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

 Both John and Nellie Connally describe head matter landing on them, John Connally describing a "chunk of the President's brain as almost as my thumbnail" landed on his trousers.  Read his Warren Commission testimony . It's in there.

 Mrs. Connally described it merely as "matter all over the car and both of us".  She stated that it felt like "spent buckshot" when it landed on her.  Read her Warren Commission testimony.  it's in there.

Roy Kellerman described the head matter as "moist sawdust" landing on him.  Read his Warren Commission testimony. It's in there.
 
 Bill Greer never mentioned feeling anything strike him, but the fact that the windshield directly in front of him was blood spattered/splattered as well as the windshield being struck on the inside by a fragment of the bullet to the head of the president, indicates he could never have escaped being splattered/spattered with blood, brain and possibly skull fragments.

  You will have to do your own search on Billy Harper re: the "Harper Fragment"

   B.J. Martin Warren commission testimony-available online  Same with his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial, also available online. 

   Bobby Hargis Warren Commission testimony and Clay Shaw trial testimony (see above)

    David Burris.  I have two 8x10's taken of the area in Dealey Plaza which Burris himself highlighted where he found the skull fragments.  I will post these photographs here on this forum. 

 Seymour Weitzman Warren Commission testimony. He mentions having found a fragment that was lying in the street 8-12 inches from the curb on the south side of Elm street. I made an error saying that Weitzman found it in the gutter.  I mixed this up with the story about Weitzman in the book The Day Kennedy Was Shot by Jim Bishop.
 
 I do not have access to any of my assassination books, they are packed away, so I cannot tell you (as I indicated) exactly where James Altgens mentioned head matter landing near his feet, but, his Warren Commission testimony does mention him saying that matter came in his direction. As i mentioned, I believe it may be in Richard Trask's Pictures Of the Pain.

   

     

   
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 10:41:40 PM by Steve Barber »

Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2018, 10:35:17 PM »
Sam Kinney was the driver of the backup car behind the JFK limo and he saw the back of the head wound as it was being blown out from JFK's head. Not only were the motorcycle patrolmen hit with brain matter and blood , Sam Kinney said the limo he was driving had brain matter on it as well as his left arm . Those people were hit hard with blood and brain matter . Jackie got on the trunk to possibly scoop up brain matter or maybe a piece of skull . Jackie did not remember going out on the trunk lid. Clint Hill said that Jackie was trying to retrieve a piece of JFK's skull. If the motorcycle policemen and Kinney were to drive thru a mist of JFK's head wound , it would not look like they had been blasted with the brains and blood matter of JFK . The limo was going very slow, if not a complete stop. There is a picture of the JFK's limo that shows the brake lights on . The Zapruder film never shows a slowing down or a stop . Hargis says he couldn't figure out why Greer slowed down almost to a stop. Hargis says maybe his (Greers) orders was to "Slow Down" !!!!!!!

Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2018, 11:47:48 PM »
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Sam Kinney was the driver of the backup car behind the JFK limo and he saw the back of the head wound as it was being blown out from JFK's head. Not only were the motorcycle patrolmen hit with brain matter and blood , Sam Kinney said the limo he was driving had brain matter on it as well as his left arm . Those people were hit hard with blood and brain matter . Jackie got on the trunk to possibly scoop up brain matter or maybe a piece of skull . Jackie did not remember going out on the trunk lid. Clint Hill said that Jackie was trying to retrieve a piece of JFK's skull. If the motorcycle policemen and Kinney were to drive thru a mist of JFK's head wound , it would not look like they had been blasted with the brains and blood matter of JFK . The limo was going very slow, if not a complete stop. There is a picture of the JFK's limo that shows the brake lights on . The Zapruder film never shows a slowing down or a stop . Hargis says he couldn't figure out why Greer slowed down almost to a stop. Hargis says maybe his (Greers) orders was to "Slow Down" !!!!!!!

  With all due respect,  Sam Kinney couldn't have possibly had "brain matter" on his left arm. Kinney's arm is not resting on the car door and there is no way "brain matter" would have landed on his left arm alone without splatter/spatter landing all over him.  Kinney could not have seen the back of the head erupt because the back of the head was not damaged.  The proof of this lies within: A. The Zapruder film. B. The Mary Ann Moorman Krahmer photo, C. The Marie Muchmore film D. The statements and interviews by Bill and Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Marilyn Sitzman and Bobby Hargis.  All of them mentioned the "side of the head" and three of them pointed to the location of the head wound, Zapruder, Mrs. NEwman and Mr. Newman.  All captured on film.

 No where do any of these people ever say anything about being "hit hard" by head matter.  That was started by Josiah Thompson who took great liberty at making Hargis'  description of the blood and brain" "hitting" him. It didn't "hit him" He drove into it as he indicated.  And Martin didn't witness the head shot, nor did he even know head matter landed on him until much later while he was directing traffic . It's in his Warren Commission testimony.

 No, Clint hill did not say that Mrs. Kennedy was trying to retrieve a piece of skull. Read his Warren Commission testimony, please. 

  Mrs. Kennedy did not exit the rear seat to possibly "retrieve" skull or brain.  There is absolutely no proof of this, only rumor, and her actions in the Zapruder film rule this not to be the case.  If you read what Hill said, he said he thought he "saw something come off the back of the car" but he couldn't be certain.  He then mentioned that a piece of skull was turned over to them the next day, but his description of whom turned it in sounds like the Harper fragment because Hill thought it was turned in by a "medical student", which would be Billy Harper. The Harper fragment was found several yards ahead of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot.

  There is no proof of brake lights captured in the on position in any of the films or photos. That is just speculation. One frame of the Marie Muchmore film captured the right rear brake light at the moment of the fatal shot, but there is not enough there to prove that the brake light was on.  Aside from, this, we already know that the car was slowing to 8 MPH from the 11/12 MPH it was traveling down Elm Street until just before the last shot when Greer turned to look to the rear.  All films show the limousine slowing--including Zpruder.
   

Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2018, 02:42:24 AM »
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  With all due respect,  Sam Kinney couldn't have possibly had "brain matter" on his left arm. Kinney's arm is not resting on the car door and there is no way "brain matter" would have landed on his left arm alone without splatter/spatter landing all over him.  Kinney could not have seen the back of the head erupt because the back of the head was not damaged.  The proof of this lies within: A. The Zapruder film. B. The Mary Ann Moorman Krahmer photo, C. The Marie Muchmore film D. The statements and interviews by Bill and Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Marilyn Sitzman and Bobby Hargis.  All of them mentioned the "side of the head" and three of them pointed to the location of the head wound, Zapruder, Mrs. NEwman and Mr. Newman.  All captured on film.

 No where do any of these people ever say anything about being "hit hard" by head matter.  That was started by Josiah Thompson who took great liberty at making Hargis'  description of the blood and brain" "hitting" him. It didn't "hit him" He drove into it as he indicated.  And Martin didn't witness the head shot, nor did he even know head matter landed on him until much later while he was directing traffic . It's in his Warren Commission testimony.

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 No, Clint hill did not say that Mrs. Kennedy was trying to retrieve a piece of skull. Read his Warren Commission testimony, please. 

  Mrs. Kennedy did not exit the rear seat to possibly "retrieve" skull or brain.  There is absolutely no proof of this, only rumor, and her actions in the Zapruder film rule this not to be the case.  If you read what Hill said, he said he thought he "saw something come off the back of the car" but he couldn't be certain.  He then mentioned that a piece of skull was turned over to them the next day, but his description of whom turned it in sounds like the Harper fragment because Hill thought it was turned in by a "medical student", which would be Billy Harper. The Harper fragment was found several yards ahead of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot.

  There is no proof of brake lights captured in the on position in any of the films or photos. That is just speculation. One frame of the Marie Muchmore film captured the right rear brake light at the moment of the fatal shot, but there is not enough there to prove that the brake light was on.  Aside from, this, we already know that the car was slowing to 8 MPH from the 11/12 MPH it was traveling down Elm Street until just before the last shot when Greer turned to look to the rear.  All films show the limousine slowing--including Zpruder.
 

 There is no way to compare how much material went behind than in front I guess you do not consider any of the people who saw Kennedy's wound before Bethesda is relevant  A few said up to 1/2, I believe that was Clint Hill The Zapruder film is obviously altered not to show skull debris

 The Harper Fragment was on the opposite side of Elm from the knoll

 Here is a good link of all those who stated the hole in JFK'd head was large and in the right rear Do you know of one witness who claimed otherwise before Bethesda? Even the overwhelming majority of them said otherwise

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 With that evidence in hand we add that all the fragments were lost by the authorities including the brain, I have little idea what evidence you feel points otherwise? It is likely a head shot did come from behind as well, but there is no doubt the shot the blew out the back of his skull came from the front
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:22:10 AM by Matt Grantham »

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2018, 02:42:24 AM »


Online Jack Trojan

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 03:01:39 AM »
Let's not use the word "proof" for anything re the Big Event. There is no proof that Oswald was a lone nut, nor is there any compelling evidence that he was. Not a single piece of evidence suggests Oswald was anything but a patsy.

As far as the limo stopping, I find it incriminating that the limo slowed down at all. That was the Turkey Shoot Point so 3 or more shots would sound like 1.

All you need to know is that the Z film was edited by the FBI then they returned a "copy" to Zapruder and Newsweek. Ask yourself where the original film is and why the FBI edited it before returning copies? The original film would tell all. So where is it?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:11:03 AM by Jack Trojan »

Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 03:43:10 AM »
      Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street     By Vince Palamara
  UPI's Four Days (1964), p. 17--- In the right hand picture [a frame from the Muchmore film], the driver slams on his brakes and the police escort pulls up.

      Case Closed by Gerald Posner (1993),p. 234---"Incredibly, Greer, sensing that something was wrong in the back of the car, slowed the vehicle to almost a standstill." AND  - Gerald Posner, with Dan Rather, on CBS' "Who Killed JFK: The Final Chapter?", 11/19/93---By turning around the second time and looking at JFK as the car slows down, Posner says that "What he [Greer] has done is inadvertently given Oswald the easiest of the three shots."

      ABC Reporter Bob Clark(rode in the National Press Pool Car)---Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];

       DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that "...at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped...Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---referring to Chaney's statement as reported in the Houston Chronicle dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];

       I've only listed a few . You can go to       mcadams.posc.mu.edu/59wit.htm

       

Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 04:16:07 AM »
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There is no way to compare how much material went behind than in front I guess you do not consider any of the people who saw Kennedy's wound before Bethesda is relevant  A few said up to 1/2, I believe that was Clint Hill The Zapruder film is obviously altered not to show skull debris

 The Harper Fragment was on the opposite side of Elm from the knoll

 Here is a good link of all those who stated the hole in JFK'd head was large and in the right rear Do you know of one witness who claimed otherwise before Bethesda? Even the overwhelming majority of them said otherwise

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 With that evidence in hand we add that all the fragments were lost by the authorities including the brain, I have little idea what evidence you feel points otherwise? It is likely a head shot did come from behind as well, but there is no doubt the shot the blew out the back of his skull came from the front


   So the Harper fragment was opposite the knoll. I've known this for years and years.    The limousine  was nowhere near where the fragment was found when the fatal shot was fired.  It traveled through the air from the top of the head, not the rear of the head! The rear of the head is intact. Period. The Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films, all show the same thing: Head matter(skull fragments) flying off the top of the head towards the infield grass where they landed.  And why do you call Bill and Gayle Newman, Abraham Zapruder, Marilyn Siztman, Mrs. Kennedy and Chuck Brehm liars?  They were standing within feet of the limousine during the fatal shot.  And the moment you are confronted with facts regarding skull material and how the Zapruder, Nix, and Muchmore films all reveal none flying behind the limousine, you render the film and or films "altered".  Absurd.  Absolutely absurd, and typical conspiracy nutter tripe.  I am well aware of the list of people who say they saw the back of the head.  Too bad they are wrong because none of them examined the head wound. Mrs. Kennedy is the first person to have seen the damage done to her husband's head, and what she tells Theodore White doesn't fit at all with your scenario.  I suggest you read it.  Clint Hill jumps all over the place when talking about where the hole was.

 As far as your two shots to the head theory. Ludicrous. Had two shots been fired into the man's head, there would have been very little of his head left.  You have absolutely no explanation for where the bullet went, and you have no explanation for how, if the shot "came from the front" blowing out the back of the head, where such a bullet came from, and how it didn't damage any of the left hemisphere of the brain or the right side of the skull.  I suggest you read up on just how little brain tissue was missing from the brain.  I'll give you a hint. It is nowhere near the amount you believe it its.  Try reading Dr. Baden's report. 

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 04:16:07 AM »


Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 04:37:15 AM »
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      Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street     By Vince Palamara
  UPI's Four Days (1964), p. 17--- In the right hand picture [a frame from the Muchmore film], the driver slams on his brakes and the police escort pulls up.

      Case Closed by Gerald Posner (1993),p. 234---"Incredibly, Greer, sensing that something was wrong in the back of the car, slowed the vehicle to almost a standstill." AND  - Gerald Posner, with Dan Rather, on CBS' "Who Killed JFK: The Final Chapter?", 11/19/93---By turning around the second time and looking at JFK as the car slows down, Posner says that "What he [Greer] has done is inadvertently given Oswald the easiest of the three shots.
 

      ABC Reporter Bob Clark(rode in the National Press Pool Car)---Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];

       DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that "...at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped...Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---referring to Chaney's statement as reported in the Houston Chronicle dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];

       I've only listed a few . You can go to       mcadams.posc.mu.edu/59wit.htm

       


 UPI had not seen anything but the Marie Muchmore film, which they had in their possession. The films all show the limo slowing and the motorcycle's remaining at the same speed.  Naturally, it looks like the "police escort pulls up" because they are still travelling at the 11 mph they were travelling before Greer took his foot off the gas.

Posner is correct.  The limo slowing did make Oswald's final shot easy target.  The limo, did not stop.

 Bob Clark was not in a position to see the limousine during the assassination.  He was several cars back and the vehicles in front of him would have blocked his view of the limousine completely.

 Your citation re Chaney is ridiculous.  We know that what he said did not happen.  Out of all of the  witnesses to the assassination, the majority of them never said anything about the limousine doing what Chaney, Truly and "Others" you say saw it stop completely.  It didn't happen. The films--regardless of your belief that they are "altered"-- prove this, as well as the majority of witnesses who never saw the car do what Chaney said it did. 

Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 04:54:20 AM »
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     Too bad they are wrong because none of them examined the head wound. .
  Try reading Dr. Baden's report.

 Amusing Doctors do not examine wounds? Remind me how Hargis is covered with brain splatter and with enough force that he thought he might have been shot and none of it would appear on film There is no brain material going what would be considered forward in Zapruder two diagonal jets with completely insignificant amounts of material Thus the Zapruder film offers virtually nothing in offering where the tissue went

 The fragments and brain being gone is immaterial apparently?

 I assume you see the three pathologists are on the list, so who exactly are your expert examiners that actually dealt with the physical evidence?  You highlighted "examined" as an operative term and that certainly does not apply to Baden
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:05:30 PM by Matt Grantham »

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 04:54:20 AM »