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Author Topic: Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !  (Read 4775 times)

Online Rob Caprio

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 02:38:07 AM »
I covered this topic in my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series. Here it is.

The issue of the limousine stopping or nearly stopping will be reposted later on.

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The Warren Commission (WC) claimed that President Kennedy (JFK) was shot ONLY from the rear.  That would mean the vast majority of the blood, brain, bone and matter would go FORWARD into the areas where Governor Connally (JBC), Mrs. Connally, Secret Service (SS) Agent Roy Kellerman and SS Agent William Greer were sitting.  Did this happen?

Let’s check the WC’s OWN evidence to see.


*****************************************


We will begin with Deputy Sheriff Seymour Weitzman’s testimony. He said this in his WC testimony.

Mr. BALL - Did you go into the railroad yards?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What did you notice in the railroad yards?

Mr. WEITZMAN - We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions.

Mr. BALL - Were there other people there besides you?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.

Mr. BALL - That you picked up off the street?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL - What part of the street did you pick this up?

Mr. WEITZMAN - As the President's car was going off, it would be on the left-hand side of the street. It would be the----

Mr. BALL - The left-hand side facing----

Mr. WEITZMAN - That would be the south side of the street.

Mr. BALL - It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street?

Mr. WEITZMAN - It was in the street itself.

Mr. BALL - On the pavement?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Anywhere near the curb?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the curb, something like that.

This testimony is very important for three reasons. Firstly, as covered in earlier posts many police officers and bystanders headed for the Grassy Knoll (GK) area as that is where they felt the shots originated from. Secondly, Weitzman mentions SS agents and again as previously covered in earlier post in this series we saw this was just NOT possible as the SS had NO agents on the ground during and soon after the shooting. The ONLY SS agent to be in the area was Forrest Sorrels and that was NOT until after he returned from Parkland Hospital (PH) around 1:00 p.m. and he then entered the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) by its REAR entrance.

Finally, and pertinent to this post, we see the mention of the President’s skull being found in the street. It was found on the LEFT side of the limousine and in the SOUTH area of Dealey Plaza (DP).  This means it went BACKWARDS after leaving the President’s head. How could this happen IF the shot came from behind as the WC claimed?

The presidential limousine had four motorcycle cops to the rear of it—two on the right side and two on the left side. The two motorcycle cops on the left side were B.J. Martin  and Bobby Hargis.  Let’s look at their testimony next.

We will establish Martin’s location with this testimony.


Mr. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with reference to the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car - on the left rear of his car.

Mr. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and then how far to the rear - so I can get some idea of your position?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and approximately 6- to 8-foot to the rear.

Mr. BALL. Of the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Of the President's car.

Mr. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service car?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

We see he was positioned to the rear of the limousine and to the LEFT of it. He also said he did NOT notice the limousine speeding up once the turn onto Elm Street was made.

Mr. BALL. Let's take the President's car - what do you think the speed of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour.

Mr. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of Houston and Elm - we'll say half way down that hill?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there.

Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow?

Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that I could notice.

This is key as many witnesses said the motorcade was going slow, and fifty-nine would say the limousine either slowed to a near stop or did stop! It has been estimated that the limousine was up to 8 m.p.h. (some say 11 m.p.h.) at the time of the head shot, but this would seem impossible given the statement B.J. Martin just said as he said he did NOT notice any increase of speed over the 4-5 m.p.h. it was going after it made the turn.

He would say he did NOT know where the shots came from, but that he did look back to his right at the TSBD and saw NOTHING!


Mr. BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the direction which the shot was coming from?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't, I couldn't tell from which direction it was coming - any of the shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you look?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. After which shot?

Mr. MARTIN. After the first shot.

Mr. BALL. You looked to your right?

Mr. MARTIN. I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. What did you look at?

Mr. MARTIN. At the building on the right there.

Mr. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it Is.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

How can this be? Remember, he was just barely in front of the SS follow-up car and we have been lead to believe certain agents in that car were looking back to the TSBD as the source of the shots, but if he couldn’t see any originate from there how could they?

He reiterates this again a little later on.


Mr. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. MARTIN. Two more shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir - just the building.

How could someone be firing from there as the WC claimed and he NOT see them or some evidence of it? He confirms what we already knew—once JFK was safely dead the motorcade picked up speed.

Mr. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then?

Mr. MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston?

Mr. BALL. No; after the shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes - after the shots we picked up speed.

Why didn’t it pick up speed after the FIRST shot? He would travel to PH with the limousine and this is where we get to the testimony pertinent to this topic.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do?

Mr. MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital. The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway down into the emergency and then we had to park cars - just a lot of people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to park cars and just generally work traffic around there.

Mr. BALL. You had a white helmet on?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet.

This would be IMPOSSIBLE if the shots came from behind as the WC claimed. He was to the REAR and to the LEFT of the limousine.  There would be NO way this much debris would be on his motorcycle and him IF the shots came from the rear.  The WC tried to explain this by inquiring about the wind that day, but that too showed it should NOT have happened.

Mr. BALL. Was there any breeze that day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. From what direction?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind as we turned off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. BALL. The wind was in your face?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall.

This was a nice touch by the WC to try and make it seem like the debris was carried by the wind, but he said it was coming from the SOUTHWEST which means the wind would have been originated from BEHIND them, NOT in front of them! We saw Robert West (Dallas surveyor since 1944) say the northwest quadrant was the GK so we know the southwest quadrant is where the TSBD was. Now this does NOT mean it did NOT LOOP back like the wind is known to do in football or baseball stadiums, but what is the time delay for this? It does NOT explain why he had debris on his helmet or motorcycle windshield either.  He will state even more debris hit him too.

Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left - of what would be the center of my forehead - approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had spots of blood on it.

Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the helmet there besides blood?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of flesh.

Mr. BALL. What about your uniform?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform.

Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the clavicle region?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side.

Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what spots were there?

Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter.

Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also on the motor.

We see NOT only did the debris go backwards but it traveled to the LEFT side of his uniform! There is NO way this could happen IF the shots only came from the rear as claimed. They would continue to ask him and he would continue to point out more spots he noticed debris.

Mr. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. Was it on the right or left side?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just in the front - right on the front just above the cowling on the motorcycle.

Clearly, this shows the head shot came from the front.  He has corroboration too. Let’s look at Bobby Hargis’ testimony.  We will begin by establishing his position in the motorcade.

Mr. STERN - Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?

Mr. HARGIS - Yes; I was.

Mr. STERN - In what position?

Mr. HARGIS - I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.

Mr. STERN - At what part of the President's car?

Mr. HARRIS. Well..

Mr. STERN - Front, or rear?

Mr. HARGIS - Oh. Rear.

Mr. STERN - Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy ?

Mr. HARGIS - Right.

Like Martin, we see he was BEHIND the limousine and to the LEFT of it. Here he describes being hit with blood and other debris.

Mr. STERN - Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have Just described?

Mr. HARGIS - You mean about the blood hitting---

Mr. STERN - Yes.

Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"

This shows us that Hargis too was covered with blood and other debris even though the WC claimed the shot came from the rear! How can that be? Notice he too says the car had “slowed down”—why? Shouldn’t it have SPED up after the sound of the first shot?

Sadly for the WC, and its current day defenders, he too did NOT pinpoint the TSBD as the source of the shots based on sound logic (i.e. him being splattered with blood), but he gave the WC a “parting gift” by saying “I had a feeling that it might have been from the TSBD” with NO reason why he would think this.


Mr. STERN - Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots?

Mr. HARGIS - Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was Just a little back and left of--Just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from.

What made him think the shots could have come from the TSBD? If they did he would NOT have been either as splattered as he was or splattered at all.

We have another piece of skull to deal with—the one found by William Allen "Billy" Harper who was a medical student at the time. He said he found the skull bone about 25 feet back and to the LEFT of the limousine.  When I brought this up to David Von Pein in 2007 he gave me this quote by Vincent Bugliosi that supposedly null and voided it.


Quote on

The "Harper fragment" was discovered around 5:30 p.m. on November 23, 1963, by Billy A. Harper. .... Dr. {J. Lawrence} Angel...declared the Harper fragment to be "clearly parietal bone" that had come from "roughly the middle of the right parietal" area (i.e., above the right ear)." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 236-237 of the CD Endnotes in "Reclaiming History" (c.2007)

Quote off

What is NOT mentioned is that Harper’s uncle was a doctor at Methodist Hospital and Billy Harper would give the skull fragment to him, and he then brought in the head of pathology to examine it. Here is a recap I did for DVP in 2007 regarding David Mantik’s work in this area.

Quote on

The "Harper fragment" (found by Billy Harper 11/23/63)---

Drs. Jack C. Harper, A.B. Cairns (Chief of Pathology), and Gerard Noteboom, Methodist Hospital (re: the Harper fragment, found 11/23/63 by Dr. Harper's nephew William Allen "Billy"Harper, a medical student):

8/17/77 interviews of Harper and Cairns with the HSCA (RIF#180-10093-10429) [see also pp. 261-262 of "Killing Kennedy" by H.E.L.]---"Dr. Harper said the consensus of the doctors who viewed the skull fragment was that it was part of the occipital region...Dr. A.B. Cairns...said the piece of skull fragment came from an area approximately two and a half to three inches above the spine area.

He said it had the markings of a piece of skull fragment from the *lower occipital area*, specifically: suture and inner  markings where blood vessels run around the base of the skull."

CD 5, pp. 150-151, CD 1269 and FBI 89-43-479 (11/25/63)---Billy Harper, after finding the skull fragment and taking it to Drs. Harper and Cairns, spoke to FBI agent James Anderton, who notified the Secret Service and was then immediately instructed by SAIC of PRS Robert Bouck to send the fragment to the White House "AND NO PUBLICITY WHATSOEVER", wrote Agent Anderton.

CD 1395, p. 50/ FBI interview of Cairns+ pages 46 and 44---"Dr. Cairns stated the bone specimen looked like it came from the *occipital region of the skull."*; The doctors made 12 photographs of it at Methodist Hospital; a woman wrote RFK in June 1964 and told him that in Dallas she had seen snapshots, taken at a hospital, of JFK's head!; RFK forwarded this letter to the WC and J. Lee Rankin's assistant, Howard Willens, immediately requested the FBI to investigate the matter.

9/15/98 letter from William A. Harper to Vince Palamara---"Your letter to my uncle Dr. Jack C. Harper has been forwarded to me for response. My uncle told me that the fragment I found was from the *occipital area of the skull.* I have seen drawings in various publications that would indicate that it belonged to this region. With regard to the question of the existence [of] photographs, it is my understanding that my uncle gave his pictures to an assassination investigative agency.”

Quote off

Eventually the fragment was given to Dr. George Burkley who was the personal physician of JFK, and subsequently the fragment disappeared from the public record. No one knows where it is today.  This to me shows it was of the occipital area as otherwise there would be NO reason to have it “disappear”.  Luckily for us, before it was turned over to the FBI, Dr. Cairns took it to Wayne Balleter (a medical photographer at Methodist Hospital)  who made very good photographs of it. Here they are.

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Here is the copy of the FBI report concerning this fragment.

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Letter by J. Edgar Hoover regarding this fragment.

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Vincent Bugliosi relied on the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) for his quote (funny how the WC defenders run to them when the WC doesn’t supply anything for them to use, huh?) and this quote came courtesy of Dr. Lawrence Angel who said it was part of the parietal area. The HSCA, via Angel, believed the Harper fragment came from the upper middle third of the parietal area to be exact.

So as we can see other sources said it was from the occipital area (including a Chief of Pathology) and  not the parietal.  He chose to select the one thing that suited his outcome and seems to have ignored the rest including the above testimonies I have included in this post.

I will not even enter into the “fragment on the trunk” discussion in this post, but it should be noted many researchers have felt Jackie Kennedy was crawling out on to the trunk to collect a piece of fragment from her husband’s head, and again, this was BEHIND him, NOT in front of him.

There is one more fragment to mention and that is the “Triangular Fragment” and this actually consisted of three fragments that were brought to Bethesda as the autopsy was still going on.  Here is an X-ray of them (they were NOT photographed).


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It was determined by beveling and the appearance of lead that this was an exit point (red circle in X-ray), but it was not stated where this fragment would have come from in the skull. Could this be the fragment Mrs. Kennedy got from the trunk and supposedly still had in her hand at PH?

The bottom line is this—whether the Harper Fragment is occipital or parietal it doesn’t really matter as it is the LOCATION in which it was found that matters.  It was found BEHIND where the limousine was located at the time of the head shot.  How could a shot from behind cause it go BACKWARDS (and to the left) BY TWENTY FIVE feet? It couldn’t. 

We again see the evidence the WC had in its own volumes shows that their claims are incorrect, thus, their conclusion is sunk again.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 02:39:55 AM by Rob Caprio »

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 02:38:07 AM »


Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 04:22:13 AM »
   Rob , once again you cover so much material in your postings and this posting says a lot about the Motorcycle Policemen and what they went through that day. The quotes from Martin and Hargis about the spray of blood and matter that hit them says once again that the JFK headshot came from the front. Rob , thanks man . You bring so much to this forum. I appreciate you , Rob !     Mike

Online Rob Caprio

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 06:14:30 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
   Rob , once again you cover so much material in your postings and this posting says a lot about the Motorcycle Policemen and what they went through that day. The quotes from Martin and Hargis about the spray of blood and matter that hit them says once again that the JFK headshot came from the front. Rob , thanks man . You bring so much to this forum. I appreciate you , Rob !     Mike

Thanks Mike. It is very kind of you to say that.

I try to cover each topic fully in each installment so that I have a reference for each point. I wasted so much time before my series trying to find things that I had previously posted in response to the LNers. They will bring up the same points over and over again. If others find it helpful then I am glad. This is why I suspect some who run other boards of really being LNers despite their claim of being a CTer as they told me on several boards that I couldn't post this series. Why would a true CTer not want this evidence and information posted? I can't think of any.

This case is so vast that it benefits the LNers as they attempt to have anyone who disgrees with them run around in circles.

Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2018, 07:15:11 PM »
Pat S.   Your posting on this subject covers a lot of ground which is very good. I went to your site and started to read as much as I could and will continue to do so.  I'm sure it had to be traumatic for Hargis being that close to what happened to JFK & Connally in the Limo. when I read in your post that the Limo (as per Hargis in an interview by Whitney) might have been stopped for 3-4 seconds and maybe 5-6 seconds after the 1st shot, but you won't find that in the Warren Commission report.( When asked if it said the Limo stopped)" Ah no I don't think it didn't , you've seen a rolling stop have you ? It's going less than 1 mile an hour ?...Well that's what he was doing he wasn't completely stopped or dead still." Pat , are there more witnesses on maybe how long the limo was stopped or going through a rolling stop (very slow) ? It's good to have you on the forum.

Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2018, 07:23:03 PM »
 Perhaps confirming the obvious but if the final shot came from the snipers nest it would have been close to 180 degrees and we would not have expected large amounts of material to go to the left of the limo?

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2018, 07:23:03 PM »


Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2018, 08:18:01 PM »
Matt , I feel that you are right with that assumption. The Z-film seems to only show the blood spatter to be up and towards the front of JFK and that it only happens in Z 313. Dino Brugioni told Douglas Horne that when they made the 2 Briefing boards on Late Saturday night the 23rd of November 1963 from the original Zapruder film there were 12 to 15 prints on the 2 boards total . Brugioni and his crew left early Sunday morning the 24th an not known to them, another crew came in Sunday night and made up 4 briefing boards which are now in the archives today. Dino's 2 briefing boards must have shown something that was not supposed to be seen , so later Sunday night the new crew came in and made their set of 4 briefing boards which they finished early on Monday morning the 25th of November which was the day of JFK's funeral. Brugioni also said that blood spatter from the head shot was 3 to 4 feet in the air and was seen on several more frames after frame 313 . Brugioni believes that the Zapruder film that resides in CIA's Archives today is not the film he saw the day after the Assassination.

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Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2018, 06:39:45 PM »
As the limo came to a stop , this seemed to be the point that the fatal head shot on JFK was made .

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2018, 03:11:18 AM »
At 20 seconds Hargis says the limo slowed. But the most interesting part is when he says "this is not for public viewing'. First he said the limo slowed but then says it "came to almost a complete stop".


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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2018, 03:11:18 AM »


Online Matt Grantham

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2018, 05:15:15 AM »
 The following link shows some evidence of some serious breaking or slowing around 313

« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 05:17:44 AM by Matt Grantham »

Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2018, 08:09:51 PM »

 It is really exasperating to read these comments from people saying that the fatal shot came from the front.  I have yet to see anyone posting the proof that the shot came from the rear, when there is more proof of it than anything else! 

 The Harper fragment and the David Burris fragment were both found several yards AHEAD of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot--not to mention the piece of skull Seymour Weitzman saw someone "lifting from the gutter on Elm street".  The majority of the head matter landed on the Connally's, Greer, Kellerman, the hood, sun visors(both sides) windshield, interior of the car, the side rails--both sides of the car and trunk lid.  All you have to do is read the testimony of Robert Frazier.  The top of the president's head--not the rear or side--was blown off.  Mrs. Kennedy's own words to Theodore White one week(7 days) after the assassination reveals this. As for the motorcycle officers, look closely and you can see the fine mist("cloud"/"plume") that  Bobby Hargis describes that he drove into, and Martin said he didn't even see the fatal shot, nor did he feel anything land on him.  He only described what he saw on his uniform, helmet and motorcycle, later, after directing traffic.  The display of head matter in the Zapruder film shows the top of the head flying through the air towards the front. Someone (I believe it was Dr.Lattimer) estimated them traveling at around 80 MPH, and it's obvious that these are skull fragments.  James Altgens stated during an interview--not to mention his WC testimony--that head matter flew in his direction.  He stated during one interview (possibly in Richard Trask's Pictures Of the Pain ) that matter landed near his feet.  Nowhere in the Zapruder film do we see skull fragments or large fragments of head matter flying to the rear of the limousine, and no skull fragments were found or seen flying to the rear.  The majority of head matter flew forward, a mist captured in the wind wafts to rear and is what landed on Hargis and Martin. 

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Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2018, 08:09:51 PM »