The Remains of Bonnie Ray


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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2022, 09:23:57 AM »
Well!

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.


Mr Lovelady must have spent a lot of time washing up! Because we have good reason to believe he didn't go out to the front steps until quite a few minutes later. (Cf Mr Shelley's testimony [he spent some time eating lunch in his office before going outside: "and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards"] + Mr Jarman's testimony [Billy came outside later than we did] + Mr Arce's testimony [he was in the domino room when Mr Lovelady says it was empty!]).

Now! Mr Arnold Rowland recalled ~12:15pm not just two black people in the fifth-floor pair of windows directly under the SN window but also possibly a white man too.

So what happened to those missing minutes in Mr Lovelady's timeline?

Well, if there was indeed a white man with Mr Williams and [Mr Piper?] at the fifth-floor window ~12:15pm, then my candidate would be Mr Lovelady himself------------who at some point thereafter will have decided to come downstairs again and watch the P. Parade from the front steps.

Remember what Mr Bonnie Ray Williams said:

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.


The idea that all these people just quietly decided to discard the idea of watching the P. Parade from six, without communicating any of this to Mr Williams, is simply fanciful---------------and would represent the most extraordinary stroke of luck for whoever was on six about to shoot Mr Kennedy.

No. I believe Mr Lovelady may well have--------as per arrangement---------taken his lunch & Coke up to six. To his surprise he was (like Mr Williams) met by 'security' who told him the floor was out of bounds but he could watch the P. Parade from five if he wished.

From the KP file for Mr Bill Shelley:


« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 09:44:34 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2022, 09:23:57 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2022, 04:39:07 AM »
The “elderly negro” at the SE 6th floor window 12:15-12:20 could be Eddie Piper IF he was wearing a red and green “plaid” shirt and IF he took off his glasses while he was hanging out the window. (Rowland would have seen the glasses if Piper was wearing them)

BRW maybe went up to the 5th floor to eat his lunch about 12:05 erroneously thinking Norman and Jarman would join him immediately.

This scenario allows enough time for a 6th floor shooter hiding out on the 6th floor to place a box on the SE window ledge by 12:25 since Piper could have left the 6th floor by 12:21 returning to the 1st floor.

There is no conflict therefore fir the shooter having to of wait until 12:24 for BRW to leave the 6th floor since BRW was never there.

The chicken bones and Dr.Pepper on the 6th floor therefore either were left by Piper or placed there after the fact perhaps moved from BRWs speculative 5th floor eating spot.




Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2022, 12:40:28 PM »
The “elderly negro” at the SE 6th floor window 12:15-12:20 could be Eddie Piper IF he was wearing a red and green “plaid” shirt and IF he took off his glasses while he was hanging out the window. (Rowland would have seen the glasses if Piper was wearing them)

Mr Piper certainly is a viable candidate in terms of physical appearance (unlike Mr Williams). And I think the WC would have killed to make him the 'elderly Negro'.

However #1:
Is this Mr Piper (main picture)? The clothes look oddly uniform-like for someone with Mr Piper's role, but this man does look a ringer for Mr Piper:

If this is Mr Piper, then a bright plaid shirt ain't what he was wearing that day.

However #2:
If Mr Piper was the 'elderly Negro', then who were the two black people Mr Rowland saw in the fifth-floor easternmost pair of windows? Without Mr Piper available, we're down to Mr Williams and Mr Troy West. And the latter seems very unlikely. (Then again: perhaps we might need to revisit Mr Charles Givens' account[s!] of his movements in the minutes leading up to the assassination?)

Quote
BRW maybe went up to the 5th floor to eat his lunch about 12:05 erroneously thinking Norman and Jarman would join him immediately.

This scenario allows enough time for a 6th floor shooter hiding out on the 6th floor to place a box on the SE window ledge by 12:25 since Piper could have left the 6th floor by 12:21 returning to the 1st floor.

There is no conflict therefore fir the shooter having to of wait until 12:24 for BRW to leave the 6th floor since BRW was never there.

The chicken bones and Dr.Pepper on the 6th floor therefore either were left by Piper or placed there after the fact perhaps moved from BRWs speculative 5th floor eating spot.

I suspect the latter was the case.

But the key issue in all this IMO:

The sixth floor was a brilliant spot from which to view the P. Parade. The obvious spot for the manual workers. And yet not a single one of them chose to watch the P. Parade from there. Why not? It's bizarre---particularly when put beside Mr Williams' recollection that there was a general agreement among the sixth-floor crew to come back up to six and watch the P Parade from there.

Again, I suggest this was no stroke of luck for the assassination team. I believe at least one, but probably more than one, employee went up to six as their first choice but was told to leave the floor. They left that floor in the belief that it was being used for bona fide security purposes to keep an eye on the crowd from.

I believe the above would explain the two clusters of employees seen at those fifth-floor windows:
~12:15pm: two black people + (possibly) a white man (Mr Rowland's recollection)
12:30pm: Messrs Williams, Norman & Jarman

All of these people would have been innocent of involvement in the plot to kill Mr Kennedy
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 12:44:58 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2022, 12:40:28 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2022, 12:53:12 AM »
Scenario D: improbable because the other TSBD black employees were accounted for. Neither Euins  nor Brennan described the shooter as a black man so it is improbable the 6th floor man seen by Rowland was some unknown black man.

James Underwood testified that Euins told him he saw a colored man with a rifle.

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #76 on: October 09, 2022, 03:53:01 PM »
Excellent point made by Mr.Lacoletti ( as usual), however , this is a 3rd party account vs Euins WC testimony himself, so IDk what to conclude.

DId Euins see an “elderly”  black man as Arnold Rowland did,  and then later Euins was advised or coerced to omit this detail in his WC testimony?

Reasons to doubt that Eddie Piper was the “elderly” black man Arnold Rowland saw at the SE 6th floor window at TSBD from
12:15 to 12:20.

1.The photo of Piper outside the TSBD wearing his jacket (post shots) .  Piper is wearing his glasses while outside which indicates he was probably nearsighted. It is therefore doubtful that if Piper were on the 6th floor to watch the JFK limo that he would have removed his glasses. It is doubtful that  Arnold Rowland would have missed seeing the glasses if Piper were wearing  them.

2. Pipers jacket appears to be a solid texture and his shirt was vertical striped ( DPD photo). This doesn’t quite match a red and green plaid shirt unless Pipers jacket was reddish color and he was wearing it open enough to expose the green striped shirt.  Or for some reason changed his shirt  for the DPD photo.

3. What reason to substitute BRW being on the 6th floor instead of Eddie Piper? It only introduces a conflict with BRW meeting Norman and Jarman at 12:25-26 which makes it a dilemma about the box on the. 6th floor SE window ledge being placed not later than 12:25 per the Bronson film while BRW is theoretically still on the 6th floor.


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2022, 05:47:48 PM »
Curious reference to a LHO fifth-floor sighting in Depository---------contained in script for Mr Bob Huffaker's 11/22 report for KRLD on Mr Oswald's arrest:

« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 05:49:19 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2022, 05:47:48 PM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2022, 11:20:12 PM »
It seems illogical for the 6th floor to have been chosen  ( allegedly) by Lovelady , Norman Jarman , or Williams since as the photos show there’s not an east west open aisle along the row of south facing windows. Boxes  are clustered up against the south wall.

In contrast, rhe 5th floor had an easy to traverse east-west aisle along the south facing row of windows per the photo showing  Norman and Jarman taking their positions for the WC investigation photos.

As Arnold Rowland claims to have seen an elderly negro wearing a red and green plaid shirt , at the 6th floor SE corner window at 12:15 such persons as Bonnie Ray Williams or Eddie Piper must therefore be ruled out as probable candidates since they  do NOT match the description.

Simultaneously, Rowland observes a man whom Rowland described    as a white man or possibly LATIN man and the man is holding a rifle that appears (in Rowland opinion) to be a 30.06 HUNTING rifle with a LARGE scope.

One has only to look at the BackYard photo of Oswald ( or someone ) holding the 40 “ MC rifle and how the left of center mounted scope  is almost NOT visible at all. And this LOS perspective from camera is a mere 10-15 ft away from Oswald and on the same level.

So it is  difficult to see the scope on the MC rifle a mere 15ft away  on the same ground level,   how much MORE difficult would it be to see the scope from 140 ft away and looking at it from iUPWARD  angle to a 72 ft height window?

Questions:
1. The 6th floor seems to have been  being occupied by 2 persons whom  do NOT appear to be TSBD employees. One was an “elderly” negro at the SE 6th floor window from 12:15-12:20 and he was LEANING OUT the window!  WHY?

2. The other white/Latin man at the SW 6th floor corner window was  AT THE SAME TIME , displaying a rifle with a scope so large that Rowland could see it from 140 ft distant. WHY?

3. After the fact, the WC  attempts to explain these 2 men seen by Rowland as being Bonnie Ray Williams and Oswald. They  place BRW, at a window that Is CLOSED and is several windows WEST  of the SE 6th floor corner window. WHY?

Do they not see the obvious conflict with Arnold Rowland observations?
Even if their intent was to discredit Rowland, why does  the WC choose to place a YOUNG “negro” with SOLID red shirt, (BRW) at a window CLOSER to Oswald and at a window BRW could NOT have been hanging out? This makes it highly improbable  that BRW could not  have seen Oswald , and just as unprovable that Oswald would  not have seen BRW BEFORE Oswald even gets to to the SW window to theoretically display an  MC rifle.

IMO, the answer must be that the WC decided (from influence by LBJ)  to zealously follow the Hoover directive ( K-memo) that the public must be convinced there was no conspiracy. To that end, they created the simplistic “Lone “Nut” theory which they HOPED the public would accept. They apparently did not anticipate the public critical scrutiny that was to follow.

Online Richard Smith

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2022, 02:16:08 PM »
A flash of credentials, and problem solved



Hilarious.  No one can believe that BRW would have been allowed to leave the floor after seeing your fantasy conspirators.  They were getting ready to assassinate the president, but they let BRW go to potentially raise the alarm or ID them after the fact blowing the whole framing of Oswald etc.

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2022, 02:16:08 PM »


 

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