The Remains of Bonnie Ray


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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2022, 07:23:03 PM »
Yet another [snippety-snip!]

Gosh, you really are lost, Mr. O'Meara..................

1. The fact that Messrs. Jarman & Norman testified to X before the WC does not prove X, especially when their various statements are so all over the place. So quoting from Mr. Jarman's testimony no more proves his veracity than quoting from Mr Shelley's or Mr Lovelady's proves theirs. This is elementary stuff  ::)

2. http://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html, Tom Alyea, "Facts and Photos", from Connie Kritzberg's Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46:

Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put it in a report and they must stick to it.

One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the 6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the window. I shot close-up shots of the entire area
.

3. Continue the exchange from Mr Rowland's testimony:

Mr. SPECTER - You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER - Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.


Take a look at the Exhibit in question and get back to us with you, ahem, thoughts!

 Thumb1:

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2022, 07:23:03 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2022, 10:22:32 PM »
Gosh, you really are lost, Mr. O'Meara..................

1. The fact that Messrs. Jarman & Norman testified to X before the WC does not prove X, especially when their various statements are so all over the place. So quoting from Mr. Jarman's testimony no more proves his veracity than quoting from Mr Shelley's or Mr Lovelady's proves theirs. This is elementary stuff  ::)

I provide evidence that Bonnie Ray was not on the 5th floor when Norman and Jarman arrive and that he came down a few minutes later, but it's not good enough for you.
I have to assume you have better evidence that BRW was already on the 5th floor when they got there.
WHAT IS THIS EVIDENCE?

Quote
2. http://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html, Tom Alyea, "Facts and Photos", from Connie Kritzberg's Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46:

Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put it in a report and they must stick to it.

One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the 6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the window. I shot close-up shots of the entire area
.

Yeah, if you hadn't noticed Alan, I quoted from the same site. Alyea appears to have had a change of heart.
But it doesn't matter.
HOW DOES ALYEA'S COMMENT NEGATE THE TESTIMONY OF THE SEVEN OFFICERS WHO DID SEE THE LUNCH REMAINS ON THE 6TH FLOOR?
[...and remember, these officers saw the remains before Alyea started filming on the 6th floor]
Quote
3. Continue the exchange from Mr Rowland's testimony:

Mr. SPECTER - You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER - Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.


Take a look at the Exhibit in question and get back to us with you, ahem, thoughts!

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I took at look at the Exhibit and couldn't help but notice that, ahem, there is no mention of the time Rowland says he saw the men at the 5th floor window! So your desperate little point has no substance.
Did you not notice that Alan  ::)
Did you really think you were going to get away with your little deception?
 Walk:

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2022, 11:00:54 PM »
I provide evidence that Bonnie Ray was not on the 5th floor when Norman and Jarman arrive and that he came down a few minutes later, but it's not good enough for you.
I have to assume you have better evidence that BRW was already on the 5th floor when they got there.
WHAT IS THIS EVIDENCE?

Yeah, if you hadn't noticed Alan, I quoted from the same site. Alyea appears to have had a change of heart.
But it doesn't matter.
HOW DOES ALYEA'S COMMENT NEGATE THE TESTIMONY OF THE SEVEN OFFICERS WHO DID SEE THE LUNCH REMAINS ON THE 6TH FLOOR?
[...and remember, these officers saw the remains before Alyea started filming on the 6th floor]
I took at look at the Exhibit and couldn't help but notice that, ahem, there is no mention of the time Rowland says he saw the men at the 5th floor window! So your desperate little point has no substance.
Did you not notice that Alan  ::)
Did you really think you were going to get away with your little deception?
 Walk:

Dan, I'm really perplexed by the Powell / Dillard photos..... BRW appears in both of the photos in almost identical poses...I don't see haw that's possible when all three of the three stooges said they jumped up immediately after the first shot and ran to the west end of the sixth floor to see what was happening in the railroad yard.     HOW could BRW appear in that window if they had jumped up and ran to the west side of the sixth floor?

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2022, 11:00:54 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2022, 11:06:45 PM »
Dan, I'm really perplexed by the Powell / Dillard photos..... BRW appears in both of the photos in almost identical poses...I don't see haw that's possible when all three of the three stooges said they jumped up immediately after the first shot and ran to the west end of the sixth floor to see what was happening in the railroad yard.     HOW could BRW appear in that window if they had jumped up and ran to the west side of the sixth floor?

Once again Walt, this is for the other thread. It's not relevant to this one.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2022, 01:37:48 AM »
I provide [snippety-snip!]

~Yawn~

1. Giving us some WC testimony from a witness who couldn't get his story straight is not providing us with 'evidence'. It's just giving us some WC testimony from a witness who couldn't get his story straight

2. Mr Alyea played along with the lie in Dec 1963 but later decided to tell the true story--------which he did quite emphatically. The DPD men, true to form, just kept up the lie

3. 
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor.
Mr. SPECTER - You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER - Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

-------------->But nice try, Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2022, 09:01:37 AM »
~Yawn~

1. Giving us some WC testimony from a witness who couldn't get his story straight is not providing us with 'evidence'. It's just giving us some WC testimony from a witness who couldn't get his story straight

2. Mr Alyea played along with the lie in Dec 1963 but later decided to tell the true story--------which he did quite emphatically. The DPD men, true to form, just kept up the lie

Yeah, great stuff Alan.
So, Jarman's lying, Mooney's lying, Hill's lying, Haygood's lying, Brewer's lying, Weatherford's lying, McCurley's lying, Craig's lying and Alyea was lying but changed his mind.
Typical of a lot of your research.
Do you remember how many people you claimed were lying when you thought Oswald was PM.
Oh yeah, if you knew anything about the case you'd know that these weren't all "DPD men".

I've provided a wealth of evidence supporting my position, you were asked to provided one scrap of evidence supporting yours. True to form, you fail to do even that.

Quote
3. 
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor.
Mr. SPECTER - You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER - Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

-------------->But nice try, Mr O'Meara!  Thumb1:

Another English lesson, Alan?
Really?

The key phrase is "at or about that time" - a reference to 12:15pm. mentioned earlier in Rowland's testimony.
This phrase is part of a question - did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Specter is asking a specific question - did you see anyone else [other than the man with the rifle and the man at the SN window], at any window on the 6th floor?
Rowland gives a very specific answer - no, I did not see anyone else on the 6th floor.
So, at or about 12:15pm, Rowland did not see anyone else on the 6th floor other than those two men.

The questioning then moves on. Rowland is reminded that he's already testified about people on the 5th floor and is asked to elaborate on that,
which he does.
This is a completely separate question from the one about the 6th floor. Rowland is not asked "who did you see on the 5th floor at or about 12:15pm?"
You have taken this phrase from one question and decided to stick in another question to suit your purposes.
That's how desperate you are to make it appear like you have any kind of point.
I thought you were being deceitful but I now think it's just a lack of language skills.

All you can do is say everyone is lying who doesn't support your MADS theory.
You twist the meaning of testimonial evidence to suit your ends and never provided a scrap of evidence to support your fantasy - isn't this ringing a bell?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 09:04:24 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2022, 09:01:37 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2022, 07:15:00 PM »
Yeah, [snippety-snip!]

~Yawn Encore~

1. The chicken bones were made a big deal of by DPD in the initial phase, then they stopped wanting to talk about them. Mr. Alyea blows the whistle on what happened: they were found on five and brought up to six. Unlike everyone you cite, he has zero reason to want to lie about this

2.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor.
Mr. SPECTER - You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER - Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.


Mr. Specter uses past perfect ("had seen") because he is referring back to this portion of Mr. Rowland's testimony:

Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor.
Representative FORD - When did you notice him?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.
Representative FORD - I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.


Mr. Rowland noticed two black people, and possibly a white man with them, at window "B" BEFORE he noticed the man with the rifle  Thumb1:

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2022, 12:31:52 AM »
Now! From Mr. Williams' WC Testimony:

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.


All those 'as I remembers'! All that hedging! The poor fellow's lying, not because he's a bad man but because he has to lie.

He started eating lunch on six but was told by someone to leave the floor. He brought his lunch down to five, where he went to the easternmost pair of windows on the south-facing side. At least one co-worker (Mr. Piper?--who was black and who was asked with peculiar forcefulness in his WC testimony if he went higher than four that day) joined him there or was already there. (Mr. Rowland noticed their presence in the window.) And then he was on his own again until Messrs Norman & Jarman spotted him up there from down in the street. They decided to go up just before the motorcade's arrival and join him on five.

After the shooting, Mr Williams was horribly shook up, because he knew now that the man/men on six were NOT there to protect Mr. Kennedy but to kill him. At first, he and Messrs Jarman & Norman tried to pretend the three of them had watched the motorcade from down in the street. But they finally had to admit to having been on the fifth floor. Mr Williams persuaded Messrs Jarman & Norman to cover for him, i.e. NOT to tell of what he had told them-----------that someone claiming authority had told him to leave the sixth floor not long after noon. Instead they were to say HE joined THEM on five, and not the other way around. They loyally played ball, but kept going off script--------which is what tends to happen when a lie is created.

Mr Truly told the WC in so many words that Mr Williams was a very dangerous witness:

Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before you today, are they trustworthy?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.
Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.

Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal. We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.


Mr Williams was entirely innocent of any knowing involvement in the assassination. He did NOT hang out at the SN window while an armed white man stood in open view on the west side of the floor. But he DID encounter this man-----and/or a confederate------on the sixth floor at some point before 12:15

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« Last Edit: October 01, 2022, 12:37:34 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2022, 12:31:52 AM »


 

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