The Remains of Bonnie Ray

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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2022, 02:25:32 PM »
LATER EDIT: It must also be noted that Rowland described features that accurately describe BRW.

So.........

A man is recalled as wearing an open-necked white or off-white tshirt, and you say 'This on its own rules out Oswald'.

A man is recalled as wearing a very bright plaid shirt, and you say 'Yep, it's definitely this guy':



As for your other arguments, Mr. O'Meara, no disrespect but they are just a medley of 'I choose to focus only on those of various BRW's statements that I like' and Organ-like 'No matter what the witness got wrong----all that SUN! all that DISTANCE!!----he still saw the guy I want him to have seen'.

And you have ignored Mr. Rowland's recollection of two black people in the fifth-floor pair of windows directly underneath the SN at or around the same time.

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2022, 02:25:32 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2022, 02:54:49 PM »
No, he didn't.  As usual, you don't understand.  Walt suggests that a photo of the event is the only way to prove that a rifle was pointed out the window.  Can you understand the difference?

You foolishly claimed that we know this with “absolute certainty”. Can you understand the difference?

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2022, 02:54:49 PM »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2022, 02:58:53 PM »
And still no answer or even hypothesis as to why anyone would move any boxes.  The conspirators were apparently like the Three Stooges.  Moe stuck a "pipe-like" object out the window, Curly yelled "bang", and then Larry moved some boxes around before making their escape (but not down the stairs since Martin suggests that was impossible).  Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck.  It's all coming together for the contrarians.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 03:01:25 PM by Richard Smith »

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2022, 02:58:53 PM »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2022, 03:18:24 PM »
Brennan saw the shooter in the 6th floor window.  BRW and the others on the 5th floor heard the shots just about their heads.  Multiple witness describe seeing the rifle pointing out that window at the moment shots were fired.  Fired rifle bullet casings were found by that window and a rifle was found nearby.  But we need a "photograph" to prove this!

Mr. JACKSON - Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from the Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon,


Mr. Couch.
Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"
And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a foot of a rifle being---the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in that window---just a quick l-second glance at the barrel.


Mr. Crawford: 

As the report from the third shot sounded, I looked
up. I had previously looked around to see if there was somebody shooting fire
crackers to see if I could see a puff of smoke, and after I decided it wasn’t a
backfire from an automobile and as the third report was sounded, I looked up
and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only
window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was
just barely a glimpse.

Mr. BALL. Which window?
Mr. CRAWFORD. That n-ould be the far east window---
Mr. BALL. On the---
Mr. CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Tesas School Book Deositorv. I
turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots they
came from that window
. That was based mainly on the fact of the quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the report.


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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2022, 03:18:24 PM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2022, 04:05:09 PM »
No, he didn't.  As usual, you don't understand.  Walt suggests that a photo of the event is the only way to prove that a rifle was pointed out the window.  Can you understand the difference?  He rejected the testimony of multiple witnesses who saw the rifle and the discovery of the rifle itself with fired bullet casings by that window.  Do you have a photo of John Wilkes Booth pointing a gun at Lincoln?  Does the lack of such a photo raise doubt as to his guilt and negate the other evidence that links him to the crime?  Does there have to be a film or photo of a criminal committing the act to prove it?  Even you can't be that idiotic. 

Walt suggests that a photo of the event is the only way to prove that a rifle was pointed out the window.

Walt responded to your comment;

Robert Jackson took a photo of the window moments after the assassination because he saw the rifle.

and asked you to produce that photo

I said the above is all BS.... I asked you to post a photo that shows a rifle sticking out of the window.

What part of "I asked you to post a photo" don't you understand?

« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 04:11:22 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2022, 04:05:09 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2022, 04:32:03 PM »
Perhaps “Richard” should ask himself why he expects anything that happens to have some “conspiratorial” explanation invented to explain it or else it didn’t happen.

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2022, 04:32:03 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2022, 07:14:42 PM »
Rowland testifies that at around 12:15pm he sees a white male holding a rifle at the far west side of the 6th floor and a black male at the far east side of the same floor. He is specific both men are on the same floor, he circles the SN windows and marks it with an "A" and even goes so far as to describe the "configuration" of the SN windows [each set of windows consists of a pair of windows and each floor has seven sets/pairs of windows]. He describes the west window as being closed and the east window as being partially opened. No other set of windows had this configuration at the time of the assassination other than the SN windows.
So there can be little doubt the black male Rowland is describing is at the SN windows.
At this same time we know Bonnie Ray Williams is having his lunch on the 6th floor. He testifies he has his lunch by the third set of windows from the east side, but, as we have seen, there is copious amounts of evidence [from at least seven of the first officers on the scene] his lunch remains were initially found on top of the stacks of boxes that formed the SN.
So we have this situation - the lunch remains of Bonnie Ray are found by the SN window [these are the only lunch remains found on the 6th floor - to suggest otherwise displays a profound ignorance of the case], Bonnie Ray is having his lunch on the 6th floor around 12:15pm and Arnold Rowland sees the man with the rifle and the man at the SN window around this time.
There are two main scenarios possible:
There is a man with a rifle by the east window, BRW is having his lunch by the third set of windows and there is an unknown black male by the SN window at the same time.
OR
There is a man with a rifle by the east window and it is BRW sat by the SN window.
The fact that BRW's lunch remains are initially discovered by the SN window suggest the latter scenario.

But there is a problem with Rowland's description of the black male at the SN window.
Rowland has the impression the man is quite elderly, certainly more elderly than Bonnie Ray. But this should hardly dissuade us from the facts established by the testimonial and physical presented above.
What factors might have led Rowland to believe the man in the SN window appeared older?
The first is that Rowland wasn't really paying close attention to the man in the SN window, he was more interested in trying to find the man with the rifle to show his wife:

Mr. Specter: Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. Rowland: It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.


The second factor is related to Rowland's distance from the TSBD and how this may have affected his judgement of the man's age. Rowland makes this comment when trying to estmate the age of the man with the rifle:

Mr. Specter: Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that man?
Mr. Rowland: This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This could be obscured because of the distance, I mean.


There is also the appearance of BRW that may have led to the over-estimation of his age.



Bonnie Ray has a very high forehead and a slightly receding hairline. He has very short, black hair which would've disappeared in front of a black background and when viewed from a position below he would have appeared balding. I believe this greatly contributed to Rowland's over-estimation of his age. The notion of someone balding is naturally associated with an older person. In the pic below it is easy to see how Rowland would have mistaken BRW for a balding, older man:



There is one last factor that may have influenced Rowland's opinion of the age of the man in the SN window. Rowland makes the following comment about the man:

Mr. Specter: Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?
Mr. Rowland: Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.


What is this feature of the man's face that Rowland is trying to remember?
I believe Rowland is referring to the fact BRW has a mustache. Although not unheard of for a young man to have a mustache, I imagine it would be another contributing factor to Rowland's over-estimation of BRW's age.
Rowland wasn't really paying attention to the man in the SN window, who was quite a distance away.
BRW has features that would certainly make him appear older from a distance, particularly to someone just getting a quick impression of him.
In no way should Rowland's explicable over-estimation of BRW's age detract from the evidence we have that BRW was having his lunch on the 6th floor at that time and that his lunch remains were initially discovered by the SN window.

LATER EDIT: It must also be noted that Rowland described features that accurately describe BRW.
Rowland describes the man as being very slender and that he was lighter skinned that other black men, two features clearly true of BRW.




Notice the horizontal shadow being cast by the bottom sash of the window above BRW's head...... There is a narrow strip of the window that is not in shadow.......Compare this strip in the Dillard  and Powell photos.....  In which photo was the sun higher in the sky?

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2022, 07:14:42 PM »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2022, 02:24:49 PM »
Walt suggests that a photo of the event is the only way to prove that a rifle was pointed out the window.

Walt responded to your comment;

and asked you to produce that photo

What part of "I asked you to post a photo" don't you understand?

What point are you trying to make?  That a photograph is necessary to prove that there was a shooter in the window?  That is absurd.   We all know that there are no photos of the rifle pointing out the window.  To ask for such a photo knowing it does not exist while ignoring the actual evidence of a shooter is absurd.   Walt suggested that was the ONLY way to prove this happened while rejecting multiple witnesses who placed a shooter in the window and the evidence such as fired bullet casings found by that window.   It is laughable to suggest that they only way to prove that there was a shooter in that window is to have a photograph of the event.  That is the old time machine claim.  Most criminals are not photographed in the act.  They are nevertheless convicted on the evidence.  Multiple witnesses (as I cited) saw the shooter or rifle in the window at the moment of the assassination.  Jackson saw the rifle and took a picture of the window because he had seen the rifle from that window.  There is zero doubt of the presence of someone in that window at the moment of the assassination.

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2022, 02:24:49 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2022, 02:34:41 PM »
What point are you trying to make?  That a photograph is necessary to prove that there was a shooter in the window?  That is absurd.   We all know that there are no photos of the rifle pointing out the window.  To ask for such a photo knowing it does not exist while ignoring the actual evidence of a shooter is absurd.   Walt suggested that was the ONLY way to prove this happened while rejecting multiple witnesses who placed a shooter in the window and the evidence such as fired bullet casings found by that window.   It is laughable to suggest that they only way to prove that there was a shooter in that window is to have a photograph of the event.  That is the old time machine claim.  Most criminals are not photographed in the act.  They are nevertheless convicted on the evidence.  Multiple witnesses (as I cited) saw the shooter or rifle in the window at the moment of the assassination.  Jackson saw the rifle and took a picture of the window because he had seen the rifle from that window.  There is zero doubt of the presence of someone in that window at the moment of the assassination.

Psssst...Mr" Smith".... Even the The Dallas Chief of police , no less, told you that they ( The investigators) had never been able to place Lee Oswald behind that window with the rifle in his hands.....

Do you understand that?...Mr "Smith"

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2022, 02:34:41 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The Remains of Bonnie Ray
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2022, 10:59:25 PM »
Psssst...Mr" Smith".... Even the The Dallas Chief of police , no less, told you that they ( The investigators) had never been able to place Lee Oswald behind that window with the rifle in his hands.....

The actual quote is:

"No one has ever been able to put him in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand."

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