From the outside looking in...


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Online Charles Collins

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From the outside looking in...
« on: September 14, 2022, 03:11:42 PM »
There were several people who said that they sighted someone on the sixth floor before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza. Arnold Rowland's sighting of a man with a rifle in the vicinity of the southwest corner of the sixth floor of the TSBD appears to me to be legitimate. However, it poses a question regarding the theory that LHO was hiding in the sniper's nest while BRW ate his lunch on the sixth floor. So, I have been examining the evidence with regards to the timing of these various sightings. I haven't tried to pinpoint each sighting to the minute. I believe that approximate timings are the best we can do for this exercise. Here is a sequence of events that appears correct to me.


The unusual activities started on Thursday 11/21/63 when LHO asked BWF for a ride to Irving on Thursday instead of his usual Friday routine. On Friday 11/22/63 LHO brought with him a long package which he told BWF was “curtain rods.” Charles Givens noticed something else unusual that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.



At approximately 11:45 the crew working on the flooring on the west side of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository breaks for lunch. According to several of the flooring workers, LHO was either on the 5th or 6th floor and stayed behind (instead of riding down on the elevators with them) and asks for the elevator gates to be shut so that he can call the elevator back up.




Soon after he arrives on the first floor, Charles Givens realizes that he left his cigarettes in his jacket on the sixth floor and so he takes the east elevator back up to the sixth floor to retrieve them. As Givens is on the sixth floor and returning to the east elevator, he sees LHO walking from the area of the southeast corner towards him. LHO is carrying a clipboard (apparently trying to make it appear like he is working). LHO again asks for Givens to close the gates to the west elevator when Givens gets to the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. What time was this?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say it was about 5 minutes to 12, …




After washing up and grabbing his lunch sack from the first floor domino room, and getting a Dr. Pepper from the vending machine, Bonnie Ray Williams returns to the sixth floor, on the east elevator, to eat his lunch. He is expecting some others to join him up there to watch the motorcade go by. However, none of the co-workers that he is expecting return to the sixth floor to eat lunch and watch the motorcade.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.
 Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.
Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor.
 


While BRW was eating his lunch on the sixth floor, Harold (Hank) Norman and James (Junior) Jarman and Charles Givens were out in front of the building on the sidewalk awaiting the motorcade. Charles Givens finishes eating his sandwich and decides to leave and walk up Elm Street to see a friend at a parking lot one block east. Hank and Junior decide to go up to the fifth floor to get a better view of the motorcade. They walk around the building on Houston Street and in through the loading dock door to the west elevator and take it up to the fifth floor.

Affidavit of Harold Norman 12/4/63:
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building.

Warren Commission testimony:
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news* that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.

*Norman is not specific on the source of the news, but If they got the news from DPD radio, the first mention of Main Street is on channel 2 @ ~12:20: “Crowd on Main Street in real good shape. Got them all back on the curb”.
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Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.




About this same time, BRW decides to leave the sixth floor on the same east elevator that he used to get up there.

Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.
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Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?
Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.


About this same time, there is an epileptic seizure happening on the south curb of Houston Street between Main Street and Elm Street. An ambulance is called, and requested code 3, due to the expected arrival of the motorcade in a few minutes.

After the 12:18 time check and just before the 12:19 time check:

289 - Give us an ambulance, 100 block North Houston Street. Epileptic seizure.
Disp. - 10/4
289 - …make it a code 3


About this same time, Arnold Rowland says that he sees a man with a rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD in the set of southern facing windows nearest the southwest corner. However, this man has disappeared by the time he tells his wife about him and she looks for him.

Mr. ROWLAND - …Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what 1 said, and I said, "He is not there now."…

CE - 358: He appeared to be slender in proportion to his height, he was wearing a white or light colored shirt, either collarless or open at the neck. He appeared to have dark hair. He also appeared to be holding a rifle, with scope attached…





About this same time, Howard Brennan arrives at the southwest corner of Elm and Houston streets, directly across from the TSBD. He sees the epileptic seizure activity, then takes a seat on the concrete railing on the north end of the reflecting pool/fountain facing north (towards the TSBD). Soon afterwards, while casually looking around at his surroundings, Brennan notices a man in the southern facing window on the sixth floor nearest the southeast corner of the TSBD building. Brennan looks back several times and sees this man disappear and reappear from that same window. Brennan says that this is the same man that he sees firing the fatal shot with his rifle from that same window approximately 8 minutes later.



Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one? Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during that afternoon.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire?
Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book Store. And
I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for his last shot.
Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about now?
Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window.
Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
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Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.
Mr. BELIN. About what weight?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.
Mr. BELIN. A white man?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.



Shortly before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza two other men (Edwards and Fischer) saw a man in the same southeast corner sixth floor window that Brennan described.


Mr. BELIN - Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white man or a Negro?
Mr. EDWARDS - White man.
Mr. BELIN - Tall or short, if you know?
Mr. EDWARDS - I couldn't say.
Mr. BELIN - Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see?
Mr. EDWARDS - No.
Mr. BELIN - Could you see his hands?
Mr. EDWARDS - I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN - What kind of clothes did he have on?
Mr. EDWARDS - Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck.
Mr. BELIN - How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees up, or what?
Mr. EDWARDS - From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up what,
Mr. BELIN - Was the man fat, thin, or average in size?
Mr. EDWARDS - Oh, about average. Possibly thin.




Mr. BELIN - Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?
Mr. FISCHER - I could see from about the middle of his chest past the top of his head.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. FISCHER - He was in the---as you're looking toward that window, he was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a little forward.And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it-uh--could have been a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.Uh---he had a slender face and neck---uh---and he had a light complexion----he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?
Mr. FISCHER - His hair seemed to be---uh---neither light nor dark; possibly a light---well, possibly a---well, it was a brown was what it was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.
Mr. BELIN - Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding hair-line---or couldn't you tell?
Mr. FISCHER - I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, because his hair didn't seem to take up much space---of what I could see of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a profile of it, or what was it?
Mr. FISCHER - I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see I believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.
Mr. BELIN - Now, could you be anything more definite as to what direction he was looking at?
Mr. FISCHER - He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple underpass.
Mr. BELIN - Down what street?
Mr. FISCHER - Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN - Down Elm?
Mr. FISCHER - Toward the end of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN - As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?
Mr. FISCHER - Yes, sir.



It appears to me that the descriptions given by Rowland, Brennan, Edwards, and Fischer are all similar enough to be describing the same man. My opinion that LHO was hiding in the sniper's nest while BRW ate his lunch has evolved. I now believe that LHO was hiding on the sixth floor, but that he was on the west end of that floor. I believe that LHO had hidden his rifle early that morning on the west end of the sixth floor. Probably in the same location where it was later hidden after the shooting. It appears to me that LHO likely heard the ambulance approaching Dealey Plaza, with siren on, and had to see whether or not it was the motorcade approaching with a siren sounding. This seems to me to be reason enough to stand up where he could be seen, because I believe that he didn't want JFK to pass by without at least taking a shot at him. When BRW did leave the sixth floor, LHO then was able to go across the sixth floor to the sniper's nest where he was then seen by Brennan, then Edwards and Fischer. I believe that LHO was wearing his t-shirt. During his escape and subsequent activities, LHO was apparently trying to change his appearance after each sighting. After all, changing appearances always seemed to work for his fugitive TV heroes when they were on the run....
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 03:20:55 PM by Charles Collins »

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From the outside looking in...
« on: September 14, 2022, 03:11:42 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2022, 04:57:26 AM »
The problem is that BRW would have been able to see somebody standing behind the southwest window if he was where he said he was.

And who was the black man that Rowland saw at the southeast window?

Online Charles Collins

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2022, 02:00:22 PM »
The problem is that BRW would have been able to see somebody standing behind the southwest window if he was where he said he was.

And who was the black man that Rowland saw at the southeast window?



The problem is that BRW would have been able to see somebody standing behind the southwest window if he was where he said he was.



BRW said that he was sitting on the cart in the third aisle from the east wall (this is also where his lunch remains were found and photographed). According to my 3-D computer model, Arnold Rowland's description of the man with the rifle fits well with a man standing back from the window at a position at least 5.5' north and 4.5' east of the inside of the southwest corner of the building. There are boxes stacked between the BRW position and the rifle man position that would block BRW's view.





And who was the black man that Rowland saw at the southeast window?


Rowland said nothing about anyone else on the sixth floor in his affidavit on 11/22/63. His wife testified that he said nothing about anyone else on the sixth floor to her or anyone else (in her presence) up until the date they testified to the WC. There were three black men visible to them, but they were on the fifth floor. Rowland could have remembered incorrectly regarding which floor.

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2022, 02:00:22 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2022, 09:45:01 PM »
Rowland said nothing about anyone else on the sixth floor in his affidavit on 11/22/63.

Ok, but BRW said nothing about where he ate his lunch in his initial affidavit. And Givens didn’t tell his “going back for cigarettes” story until 5 months later.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2022, 02:14:20 AM »
Ok, but BRW said nothing about where he ate his lunch in his initial affidavit. And Givens didn’t tell his “going back for cigarettes” story until 5 months later.


Rowland said that the epileptic activity was going on at about the same time of his sighting of the rifle man. Rowland also said he saw the black man hanging out of a window in the east corner before he saw the rifle man in the west corner. Therefore it appears that if he actually did see a black man, it would have been ten minutes or more before the motorcade arrived.



Once Brennan arrived (about the time of the epileptic episode) and saw a white man in the sniper’s nest window, he testified that he didn’t see any other people on the sixth floor:

Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man.
All right.
And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that.
All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you said, at least two times come back and forth.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect?
Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor.

There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that I noticed.
There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.




Rowland’s same day description, and his wife’s confirmation that he tried to point him out to her at that time, appears to me to be genuine and possible. The additional stuff that Rowland came up with during his WC testimony appears to be full of errors (at best). And some of it possibly just figments of his imagination (if his wife’s opinion  is correct).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 02:15:32 AM by Charles Collins »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2022, 03:08:11 AM »
Imo if Rowland saw BRW “hanging out the window”  at the SAME TIME Rowland saw the SW window gunman  (12:15 by the TSBD roof clock that  Rowland saw) then there Is SOME probability that BRW could have missed seeing the gunman even though the gunman might have seen BRW.

One of the reasons I doubt that  the gunman was Oswald at 12:15 is because of Carolyn Arnold’s sighting of Oswahd in the 2nd floor lunchroom at approx that same time 12:15.

Even if it was a couple of minutes later at 12:17-12:18, it is  illogical for Oswald (or other gunman) to have left the 6th floor and travel down the 2nd floor lunchroom , there to wait for the motorcade to arrive. Even if the gunman was listening to a radio he might have  with him while he waits in the lunchroom, he would still not know if BRW have left the 6th floor.

Therefore Ii seems more probable that the gunman would have remained in some proximity to the 6th floor since he was the one who placed the box on the window ledge at approx just a mere 15-30 secs before 12:25 (the time supposedly that the. Bronson film began that shows the box in the window.)

Since BRW did not leave that SE window that Rowland saw h hanging out of) until about 12:24 ,then the gunman must have be close enough to get to the SE  6th floor window and place the box on the ledge in about 1 minute.

So my best guess is that the gunman KEPT his rifle in hand after backing away from the SW window at 12:15 ( after he saw BRW) and that the gunman hid somewhere near the NE corner of the 6th floor where he would only have about 100 ft or so distance to traverse to get to the SE window in about 15 secs and in another 30 secs able to stack 3 boxes , one of which was placed on the window ledge.

Why Rowland or anyone else did not see this activity must be a matter of probability of the small % of time (only 30 secs) to place the boxes just before 12:25. Thus when Rowland checked the window again at12:25, the gunman had finished his box on the ledge placement and was hiding himself probably sitting on a box with his torso and head to the left of the window enough to be out of LOS in the Hughes film.

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2022, 03:08:11 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2022, 02:37:35 PM »
If I remember correctly, none of the four black men (Givens, BRW, Jarman, Norman) said anything about the ambulance that picked up the epileptic. I sure wish that the investigators had thought to ask them about that because I think that would have been something that would be memorable to them. And it could have helped to better estimate the timing of their movements to the fifth floor. Since none of them (iirc) mentioned this event, I think that it could be possible (even probable) that the ambulance came and went during the period of time in which they were traveling to the fifth floor.

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2022, 09:12:54 PM »
Brennan also added new details to his story over time. There’s no good reason to prefer his account over Rowland’s. Either one of them could have seen things that the other one missed.

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Re: From the outside looking in...
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2022, 09:12:54 PM »


 

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