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Author Topic: The Position of the Bolt on the MC  (Read 32880 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2022, 12:30:35 AM »
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Perhaps James Hackerott can work with the Alyea film and post one of his good photos...

Would this be like the "good photo" of the rifle found in the upright position that you still continue to deny?

Mr Omeara....Since I'm 100% certain that the DPD staged the in situ photo that shows the rifle upright and jammed between boxes, i'm sure you can visulize that they created that photo at the same time that they created the fake insitu photo.   

Although I'm not absolutely sure, I doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle from the floor.... because many of the boxes would have had to have been moved to allow him access to that spot.   And everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle. 

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2022, 12:30:35 AM »


Online James Hackerott

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2022, 01:02:04 AM »

It really isn't debatable ...because we have photos of Lt Day carrying the carcano out of the TSBD and the clip is quite visible.....So it must have been in the magazine as Day dusted the rifle for prints.

Perhaps James Hackerott can work with the Alyea film of Day dusting the carcano in looking for prints and then post one of his good photos...
I found 29 frames suitable for stacking and enhancement. There is a highlight flush where the clip should exit the rifle. Your expertise would know if there is some internal part that could be visible at the rifles orientation to the camera.


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2022, 01:03:18 AM »
I must have missed the evidence that the suspect rifle had been recently fired. Was there not a way that this could be done?
Also...in the video where the guy is firing the Carcano...along about 4:18---the cartridge hangs up.
I hate it when that happens.

I must have missed the evidence that the suspect rifle had been recently fired.

Nobody ever reported seeing Day or Fritz giving the rifle the old olfactory  test.   Very simple...Just sniff the barrel or action to know if the weapon has been recently fired.  It's an elementary quick and easy way to determine if a gun has been fired recently.

Even if they had been negligent in performing this basic test , if that rifle had been fired when Fritz "uncorked" the chamber by removing the live round  He certainly would have noticed the stink from the .,burned gun powder....and anybody close by would also probably have smelled the burned powder....But nobody reported that smell.....

Just another indication that the rifle was not fired that day.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2022, 01:03:18 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #163 on: July 27, 2022, 01:12:01 AM »
I found 29 frames suitable for stacking and enhancement. There is a highlight flush where the clip should exit the rifle. Your expertise would know if there is some internal part that could be visible at the rifles orientation to the camera.


Thanks for your help Mr Hackerott .... And I would say that the picture probably does show the light colored (brass) clip in the magazine, but this picture is inconclusive...and not clear enough to wager the plow mule on.

A couple of years ago a man who was a LNer posted a good picture from the Alyea film but a person has to know what he's looking at to accept the photo actually shows that brass clip in the aperture of the magazine.

I hope you will try again...but perhaps that's as good as we are going to get.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #164 on: July 27, 2022, 10:23:40 AM »
Mr Omeara....Since I'm 100% certain that the DPD staged the in situ photo that shows the rifle upright and jammed between boxes, i'm sure you can visulize that they created that photo at the same time that they created the fake insitu photo. 

You are 100%wrong about this. The Alyea film is actual film footage of the moments after the initial discovery of the rifle. According to Tom Alyea:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle."


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Although I'm not absolutely sure, I doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle from the floor.... because many of the boxes would have had to have been moved to allow him access to that spot.   And everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle.

You "doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle"?
So, in your imagination, Alyea filmed Day picking up the rifle, both Day and Fritz examining the rifle, Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints AFTER WHICH, Alyea filmed Fritz stepping into the "enclosure" which shows the rifle back on the floor in the upright position?
Have a think about that Walt.

"...everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle."

You have made this up.

The Alyea footage is the best evidence we have regarding the initial position of the rifle between the boxes at the time of it's discovery. Dismissing it because you have a different theory isn't very credible. The rifle was discovered in an upright position, this was filmed by Tom Alyea, photographed by Day and Studebaker and testified to by Day, Craig and others.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 01:11:35 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #164 on: July 27, 2022, 10:23:40 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #165 on: July 27, 2022, 01:54:11 PM »
Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

 It makes good sense to me that one of the first things that should be done when picking up a firearm is to see if it is loaded. Based on that basic safety precaution, that most of us are taught to always do, and Day’s bolded testimony above which appears to indicated that they did indeed do just that. It appears to me (in the Alyea video) that the rifle was held by Day with the muzzle pointing towards the floor while Fritz opened the bolt. If that is indeed what happened, then the position of the bolt when the rifle was found can only be seen during the brief period immediately after Day picks it up off the floor. And after I received and reviewed a copy of the Lost Tapes DVD that James Hackerott used in his work, I have changed my opinion again regarding the position of the bolt. Instead of just one static image in which camera angle relative to the rifle angle can play tricks on our perception, I have now seen clearer images of all the frames in which the bolt position is visible. And now I believe that the bolt handle is not all the way up as far as it can go. Instead, it appears to me that the bolt handle is only part-way up from the full down position. And therefore the bolt must have been fully closed. Additionally, with the rifle muzzle pointing down, gravity would help hold a cartridge in the barrel. And the cartridge would not fall to the floor without the extractor having had pulled it out of the barrel first.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 01:57:04 PM by Charles Collins »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #166 on: July 27, 2022, 03:41:20 PM »
You are 100%wrong about this. The Alyea film is actual film footage of the moments after the initial discovery of the rifle. According to Tom Alyea:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle."


You "doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle"?
So, in your imagination, Alyea filmed Day picking up the rifle, both Day and Fritz examining the rifle, Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints AFTER WHICH, Alyea filmed Fritz stepping into the "enclosure" which shows the rifle back on the floor in the upright position?
Have a think about that Walt.

"...everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle."

You have made this up.

The Alyea footage is the best evidence we have regarding the initial position of the rifle between the boxes at the time of it's discovery. Dismissing it because you have a different theory isn't very credible. The rifle was discovered in an upright position, this was filmed by Tom Alyea, photographed by Day and Studebaker and testified to by Day, Craig and others.

Th

Mr O'meara....I certainly agree that the Alyea footage is the best evidence we have...But the photos of the rifle in situ and Fritz standing in the hole ae NOT from the Alyea film.

There are so many aspects to be debated that I hate to dive into this quagmire.   But let's start with the feasibility of jamming that carcano between boxes as it is seen in the official DPD in situ photo....

Do you believe that the skinny ( 131 lbs) Lee Oswald could grab that 9 pond rifle by the butt end of the stock and hold the rifle horizontal as he jammed the rifle between the boxes?   

Next Question... Do you believe that it's possible to insert that 40 inch long rifle into the east west space between the boxes ?
That distance as seen in the photo of Fritz standing in the hole appears to be about 24 inches.....How could Lee Oswald have held that 40 inch long rifle by the butt and inserted it into an space that is about 2 feet .??
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 03:56:34 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #166 on: July 27, 2022, 03:41:20 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #167 on: July 27, 2022, 04:53:56 PM »


I think that the sight of JFK's head exploding could have been enough of a shock (even to LHO) to make him just freeze in the middle of loading the next round. But, of course, anything we come up with is only conjecture.

Another, totally different, possibility is that LHO actually did complete the loading process of the next round and set the rifle down between the boxes. The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright. The Alyea film appears to show Day lifting the rifle from a laying down position. So it is conceivable that before Day lifted the rifle from the floor that either he or Fritz could have lifted the bolt handle into the up position by reaching between the boxes. I am not saying that that is what happened. Only that I think it is a possibility.

I think that the sight of JFK's head exploding could have been enough of a shock (even to LHO) to make him just freeze in the middle of loading the next round. But, of course, anything we come up with is only conjecture.

I believe that if you think about this, you'll abandon the idea that Lee stopped loading that fourth round  because he saw JFK head explode.  He would have had to have superhuman reflexes to respond as you suggest.

Another, totally different, possibility is that LHO actually did complete the loading process of the next round and set the rifle down between the boxes. The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright. The Alyea film appears to show Day lifting the rifle from a laying down position. So it is conceivable that before Day lifted the rifle from the floor that either he or Fritz could have lifted the bolt handle into the up position by reaching between the boxes.


The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright.

I don't believe the photos that show the rifle in the upright position are authentic photos of the rifle as it was found...

Boone said that he moved a box (that served as the "roof " of the crevasse) in which the rifle lay.   He said that he shine his flashlight down and saw a bit of the stock of the rifle laying in the floor.   And Seymour Weitzman was on the floor looking west toward where Boone was standing and he saw the rifle ON THE FLOOR.  Weitzman could not have seen the rifle if it had been jammed between the boxes as it is shown in the official DPD photo.